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SJS
10-07-2012, 04:17 PM
Here's my spin on mid season SJS rankings. For the Girls. St. Francis holds a slim lead over Davis at this point in the season. One injury on either team could change the finish for Section finals in D1. Have to go with SF now. Bella Vista looks to have D2 locked up. Great showing for BV at Clovis invite showing the depth they have this year. Vista has D3 locked up but this team lacks the depth needed to get a State Championship in November.

For the boys. Davis Senior is my pick for the D1 title. Scranton is back and the team is running well. Nice showing at Clovis. Del Campo again as champs in D2. It's taken awhile for Bob King, but it looks like he has this team ready for a championship run. Big test this week with league match up against Bella Vista. BV looks injured again this year, running 6 at Stanford and 5 at Clovis. Lack of depth is an awful thing to deal with in November. Placer looks poised to take D3 and I might have them ranked too low in the overall section. A team to watch.

Girls

1. St. Franicis
2. Davis Sr.
3. Bella Vista
4. Vista Del Lago
5. Oak Ridge
6. Del Oro
7. Ponderosa
8. Woodcreek
9. Granite Bay
10.Vacaville

Boys

1. Del Campo
2. Davis
3. Bella Vista
4. Placer
5. Lincoln-Stockton
6. Woodcreek
7. Oak Ridge
8. Whitney-Rocklin
9. Rocklin
10.Granite Bay

Rich Gonzalez
10-09-2012, 08:09 AM
SJS,

Agree fully with all your great notes.

Bella Vista's boys situation is definitely the most intriguing. Before the start of the season, I had Del Campo as the clear #1 in SJS in Division 2, so was surprised when Bella Vista beat them in the first league meet. Personally, don't think that the "Del Campo is strongest at the end" label really applies here because of the size of the preseason gap between DC and BV on paper. Forget their current ranking, Del Campo truly has a very good shoot at the state D2 title.

The answer to your Placer question probably lies in how "effective" Bella Vista is at having "all hands (and feet) on deck".

Dozer
10-12-2012, 05:36 AM
Any divisional rankings out there for SJS?

SJS
10-12-2012, 10:19 AM
Little reluctant to post this before the Bella Vista Bronco Invite this weekend where many of these teams will run, but here's a mid-season prediction for Divisional Rankings. I'm not familiar enough the Divisions 4 and 5 to make any predictions. Again, this could all change once we see these teams over the weekend.

D1 Girls - 3 Teams to State

St. Francis - Section Champion
Davis

(On the bubble to State)
Oak Ridge
Woodcreek

D1 Boys - 2 Teams to State

Davis - Section Champion
Lincoln-Stockton

D2 Girls - 3 Teams to State

Bella Vista - Section Champion

(On the bubble to State)
Granite Bay
Ponderosa
Del Campo
Vacaville.

D2 Boys - 3 Teams to State

Del Campo - Section Champion
Bella Vista

(On the bubble to State)
Granite Bay
Whitney
Rocklin

D3 Girls - 3 Teams to State

Vist Del Lago - Section Champion
Del Oro

(On the bubble to State)

El Dorado
Rio Americano
Oakmont

D3 Boys - 3 Teams to State

Placer - Section Champion
Will C Wood
(On the bubble to State)
Del Oro
El Dorado

All Divisions will have very competitive championship races. D1 Girls between St. Francis and Davis could go either way. D1 Boys - Davis should win, but Lincoln will challenge. D2 Girls - Bella Vista is Dominate. The race here is the next 5 teams. Toss up. D2 Boys - Del Campo my pick, but if Bella Vista can get healthy..watch out. D3 Girls - Vista Del Lago gets the win, but it's not a given. Del Oro could pull an upset here!! D3 Boys - Placer is Dominate. The race here is the next 3 teams.

SJS
11-05-2012, 08:23 AM
No big changes since my mid season rankings. Here's the way I see it playing out at Willow Hills on Saturday. The weather should be perfect BTW. Congrats to all the teams and coaches for another great season in the SJS.

DI Boys*
Davis Senior
Lincoln

DI Girls*
St. Francis
Davis Senior
Oak Ridge

DII Boys**
Del Campo
Bella Vista
Whitney

DII Girls**
Bella Vista
Whitney
Vacaville

DIII Boys***
Placer
El Dorado
Will C Wood

DIII Girls***
Vista
Del Oro
Rio Americano

Albert Caruana
11-05-2012, 12:07 PM
I would be interested to hear your thoughts on the SJS Sub-Sections. Are those races really necessary? Couldn't they just have races for the Freshmen, Sophomores and JVs on this date? How do most coaches feel about the Sub-Sections?

Rich Gonzalez
11-05-2012, 12:20 PM
I would be interested to hear your thoughts on the SJS Sub-Sections. Are those races really necessary? Couldn't they just have races for the Freshmen, Sophomores and JVs on this date? How do most coaches feel about the Sub-Sections?

Will say that over the years, several SJS coaches have expressed to me their frustration for the SubSections meet, saying it's an extra race that should not be done.

As one can easily tell, several of the top teams cruised a great deal.

Dozer
11-05-2012, 05:52 PM
The only purpose I see it serving is that you get one more look at your younger talent if you are looking to move some of them up. But most should know by then who they should or could move up to Varsity.

My alma mater is Bret Harte and there are some years that we have a lot of young talent that are very close together and hard to distinguish who would be a good candidate to move up. In the years that they may need it, that is. My point being is that it really may only help the schools that have a lot of runners that consistently run interchangable times.

SJS
11-10-2012, 01:32 PM
Upsets in SJS Section today!!!!

Vista Del Lago, the number 3 ranked girls team in State DIII, gets beat by Del Oro.

Bella Vista boys, the number 8 ranked team in State DII, places 5th and misses out on a state meet berth.

CoachB03
11-12-2012, 08:45 AM
I would be interested to hear your thoughts on the SJS Sub-Sections. Are those races really necessary? Couldn't they just have races for the Freshmen, Sophomores and JVs on this date? How do most coaches feel about the Sub-Sections?

I do not like the current format for our sub-section meet. It is completely superfluous. The good schools always just cruise and someone is always getting injured. My #3 man this year stepped in a hole on the first big (and overly steep) downhill this year. He finished, but I had to rest him all week. He re-aggravated his injury at the section meet on Sat. It didn't cost us a berth in the state meet, but it was an injury that didn't need to happen. Last year, I had to carry my #4 girl out of Frogtown. I've seen more ambulances drive out onto the course at that meet than I have at all other cross country meets I've ever attended, combined.

The Bret Harte alum was right about taking a look at any younger kids at the 3 mile distance. Here in the SJS, the younger kids race 2 miles all year long. They may look great in workouts, but be unable to make the jump to the 5k distance for a meet. Subs does give a nice chance to give them a dress rehearsal in the JV (3 mile) race. I suppose I wouldn't mind the meet so much if the downhills weren't so punishing, and didn't have so much pavement. I'll take Mt. SAC over frogtown any day.

Birdman
11-13-2012, 11:53 AM
I would be interested to hear your thoughts on the SJS Sub-Sections. Are those races really necessary? Couldn't they just have races for the Freshmen, Sophomores and JVs on this date? How do most coaches feel about the Sub-Sections?

Having both SJS Subsection and Section meets are NOT necessary and can be detrimental (back to back meets impacts training, possible injuries during unnecessary meet, etc).

The only reason I see for Subsections is to thin out the number of teams before Sections at Willow Hills. Frogtown can start a large number of teams while Willow Hills can only start 8-10 teams max without runners getting pushed off the levee in the constriction after the start.

Several of the more competitive teams have used Subsections as a tempo training day for the last several years and arguably they probably prepared better for Sections and State by doing so.

I like your idea for making Frogtown Subsections a non-Varsity all SJS end of season meet. But we would still face the challenge of hosting Sections at a location that can handle all the SJS teams or else thinning the list out some other way before Sections meet at Willow Hills.

Another idea I heard was if we had to have 2 meets in SJS to have one be the Section championships at Willow Hills and have Subsections not only qualify for SJS Sections but also run it using State CBEDS instead of SJS CBEDS as a State qualifier meet. Not a perfect idea but at least Subsections would then provide a reason for top SJS teams to actually compete at Frogtown. And with a bonus that SJS teams would run in correct divisions at State.

Keith Chann
11-13-2012, 12:34 PM
As a Southern Section coach, I am completely clueless about how the qualification procedures work in SJS (among many other things!!). In SS we have league meets and the top X number of teams advance, based on the number of teams in the league, to SS prelims. Then, based on the number of heats, the top teams advance to SS Finals to give 16 teams in the finals races. In 2 heat divisions, the top 8 teams advance, in 4 heat divisions the top 4 teams per heat advance and in 3 heat divisions the top 5 teams plus the fastest 6th place team from all 3 heats advance to SS Finals. From SS finals the top 7 teams (5 automatic plus 2 more teams based on SS performance at past State meets) advance to the State Championships. Once league emets are done, teams compete in the same divisions as they will at the state meet.

How does it work in SJS from league meets to State?

CoachB03
11-15-2012, 05:33 AM
In the SJS:

All teams, JV, Frosh, Soph, Dogs, Cats, and Escheria Coli advance out of league to the Sub-Section meet.
The sub section meet is essentially a large invitational that charges 6 bucks a head with no entry fee cap and draws 200 teams
It is run on a course that is 35-40% pavement with 2 crazy steep, rutted, gopher hole filled downhills
From this meet, the top 10 varsity teams in each division and the top 6 teams in the JV/F/S divisions qualify for the section finals to run against....the exact same people they ran against at Subs

The section meet is also run on a very difficult course. It is here that we determine our state meet qualifiers

Birdman
11-15-2012, 06:40 AM
In the SJS:

All teams, JV, Frosh, Soph, Dogs, Cats, and Escheria Coli advance out of league to the Sub-Section meet.
The sub section meet is essentially a large invitational that charges 6 bucks a head with no entry fee cap and draws 200 teams
It is run on a course that is 35-40% pavement with 2 crazy steep, rutted, gopher hole filled downhills
From this meet, the top 10 varsity teams in each division and the top 6 teams in the JV/F/S divisions qualify for the section finals to run against....the exact same people they ran against at Subs

The section meet is also run on a very difficult course. It is here that we determine our state meet qualifiers

LOL. Exactly so.

Keith Chann
11-15-2012, 06:46 AM
And nobody has challenged the legality of you having to pay to advance in the CIF playoffs??!!
You have to pay $6/person to run a meet that is mandatory to advance in the CIF playoffs?

Wow!

Rich Gonzalez
11-15-2012, 07:06 AM
And nobody has challenged the legality of you having to pay to advance in the CIF playoffs??!!
You have to pay $6/person to run a meet that is mandatory to advance in the CIF playoffs?

Wow!

Coach Bernard's version is the one I hear most often from the Sac-Joaquin Section coaches. They are not fond of the setup, to say the least.

Dogs, cats and escheria coli? LOL.

Dozer
11-15-2012, 07:10 AM
Since i have not run there in 20 years, i can't speak to the current conditions of the course but I can say that the hills were steep coming down in the first set of hills. Me being biased and having a lot of memories there I would hate to see subs eliminated.

That being said, I think the best solution is to go to only 6-8 qualifying teams, depending on the number of participating schools in that division if you want a qualifying meet. Don't merge divisions, at subs or sections. I have never been a fan of that as it can make choke points crowded.

If most schools want subs eliminated, then just have the section meet for varsity runners and use subs as a race for the JV, F/S runners. also, make these races 3 miles same as the varsity runners to help evaluate deep teams and young talent. (thank you to the previous poster that suggested that).

Our section does not have as many schools as the SS but we also do not have as few as some other sections. Maybe its time to examine if our current format fits the current needs of our Section.

I would hate to relocate subs but if a majority of coaches think that safety is a real issue there, then by all means move it.

Dozer
11-15-2012, 07:19 AM
For the record, the SS has more schools than the next three sections combined (in XC)!!! Not important to the conversation, I just love random facts.

SJS
11-15-2012, 08:28 AM
To make matters worse, this year there was a water main break at the fairgrounds. All the restrooms were shut down around 9AM and a limited amount of porta potties were made available. The line to the portables was about 90 deep much of the morning. I know of one team who was very late in getting to the line because of the situation. (girls of course). It was not a good experience for anyone this year and I would suggest a venue change in the future.

CoachB03
11-15-2012, 06:20 PM
Yes, the E.Coli was in reference to the toilet situation this year....as well as all of the cow patties out on the course.

Oh, by the way Keith, the entry fee goes up to 8 bucks a head at the section meet. It used to be that only 8 varsity teams qualified to run at the section meet, but the number of teams running on this choke point infested course was increased to 10 per division a couple of years ago.....apparently in an attempt to "give more kids a playoff experience". I think this is also the logic that has led the number of football playoff games to almost triple over the last few years. The result of this ballooning of playoff games was a predictable set of blowouts in the first round (I believe only one game out of all 7 divisions ended up being decided by less than 20 points). But, hey, playoff games bring in gate.

The section meet is held at the Folsom High School campus and they charge 5 bucks a vehicle for parking. Someone is making a killing on these two meets, and it aint me. Don't get me wrong, I don't begrudge Folsom the right to charge parking fees, and I think they have a great cross country course (for a small meet) but this is a case of the rich getting richer.

If I was the omnipotent designer of solutions, I would split the section into a northern half and a southern half, with a sub section meet for each half of the section. Teams could then qualify for a section meet that could be held somewhere in the middle of the section (stockton ish, perhaps) on a neutral course (Eagle Lakes in Tracy or Oak Grove Park in Stockton). The course would have to have enough facilities to accomodate all of the runners attending. I'm pretty sure Oak Grove Park has pretty extensive facilities. The south sub section could still be held at Frogtown, with a few modifications to the course (less pavement, cut a few trails with more gently sloping downhills). North sub section could be still held at Willow Hills (or one of the many potential sites in the Sacramento area). I would eliminate entry fees (I don't know how this would effect the revenue stream for the section) because it is pretty galling, as Keith said, to pay to advance in the playoffs. I don't think I would make a criterion to qualify out of league, especially since the section would be split in 2 halves. Coaches already have the option to not advance kids to the subsection meet (many times, have I told a kid to go ahead and move on over to the basketball team or wrestling squad after our league meet is over).