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Doug Soles
01-23-2013, 09:46 AM
Dear CIF-Southern Section,

Thank you for bringing up the rules on undue influence. Here are some red flags for schools that might be breaking the rules:

1. When a small private school's girl's C team runs sub 1:40 in the 4x200, you might want to check into that.

2. When a school's football team is comprised almost completely of athletes that did not go to a surrounding middle school and they aren't a private school, you might want to check into that.

3. When a team is comprised of athletes from all over and they all played on the same club team which happens to be coached by that same coach, you might want to check into that.

4. When a school has 100 athletic transfers a year transferring in, you might want to check into that.

5. When a school's parents are sending out hand written letters encouraging athletes to come to their school, you might want to check into that.

6. When a team consistently wins CIF-SS titles with talent levels nobody else has. Ever. You might want to check into that.

7. When a school's coaches are seen consistently talking with middle school parents at youth football games, and then those kids miraculously end up at that coach's school, you may want to look into that.

8. When a school sends a van many miles from school to pick up kids that just happen to be state champion level athletes to come to their school, you might want to check into that.

9. When an athletic director encourages their coaches to go out and get good players and does everything he can to ensure their eligibility to play, you might want to look into that.

In all seriousness though, if you are forming a sub committee to look into the problem then maybe they can start using a little common sense as to which programs are blatantly cheating and which ones are not. If you are serious about solving this problem, start by creating lists of teams that need to be watched and evaluated (start with teams that win a lot or that have tremendous standout individuals every year, then look at where those kids went to middle school, which club teams they were on going into middle school, etc. Next add schools that have a lot of transfer paperwork each year...) At the end of the list, there will only be a certain number of schools left to truly investigate. Investigate those schools without anyone asking you too. It can't be that hard to take a roster and find out what middle school each athlete went to. That would be a great place to start. In the end, actually do something about it if cheating is involved (not allow athletes to transfer to that school for x number of years, no playoffs for that school, recommendation for replacement of the school's athletic director to their principal or school board, etc.).

I and many other coaches out there would love to see CIF start to even the playing field on transfers. We have arguably the BEST section in the country with amazing people working for the CIF, it would be great if we enforced the rules. Money should not be used as an excuse to keep our section running properly. If it is important, which this is, then finding the money is easy to do by changing some priorities.

Thank you,

Coach Soles

ClemDog
01-24-2013, 06:42 AM
Amen!

Keith Chann
01-24-2013, 12:20 PM
Since I don't have Facebook and therefore cannot respond to the article on the front page, I will post here.

Until the CIF-SS offices decide that recruiting is a punishable offense, it will continue to happen. If you have been a coach in the SS for more than a couple of years then you can probably point to several programs that would at minimum be suspect. However, this is a similar situation to the use of PEDs in sports and the coverage by the media and those on the inside. We all know that reporters and beat writers knew about players doing things but did not report because of some sort of unspoken honor code or for fear of being ostracized by the group they are trying to get close to. The coaches hear things and many know things but very few will speak out about other coaches that we must deal with on a weekly basis. It is a very difficult issue to get proof for but we hear things and can see the results of recruiting. Unless CIF deems it important with dedicated money and punishment, not just a piece of paper and un-enforced rules, nothing will change. In fact, once more coaches notice that nothing is done to punish or even dissuade the top offenders, the problem will continue to grow with a long line of "If they are doing it, I need to try to keep up."
Are coaches willing to call out violations/violators? Will said coaches be reprimanded by their own schools for making them look bad because the coach is trying to report violations? Will the CIF actually enforce its own rules? (We hear over and over that the CIF is not an enforcement agency and that it is up to the individual schools to do something but the schools defer to CIF in a useless cycle)

Doug Soles
01-25-2013, 07:56 AM
Three Trees,

I'm assuming your post is saying from a parent's perspective in summary "Is it fair to leave great kids at bad schools with bad coaches? Why shouldn't they transfer to find the best position for them and their future?"

As a parent myself, I get that. A couple things to think about:

1. If your kid is good, why not have them become the foundation for success at their school?

2. No parent support for the coaches? Why don't you be the person that organizes/creates the booster group? The person that calls all of the other parents and gets them involved. The person that stands up and says that you will support them and their vision.

3. Your coach isn't good? What have you done to support that coach? Are you raising money to help the team afford better uniforms, better meets, more assistants, team camps? Are you encouraging your coach to go to LA84 clinics? Do you nicely offer to go with them so you can all learn and improve? Do you volunteer as an assistant? Do you help the coach call all incoming 9th graders and encourage them to join the team?

At the end of the day, transferring is the easy route for your child. Why not challenge them to be the person that changes the culture of the team/program/school? Why not teach your child to be the leader that the team needs to be successful? At the end of the day all parents must take responsibility for their child's school and the success or failures that happen there.

Being on an all-star team is fun, winning is fun, but does it teach your child the right lessons? Does it teach them to be a leader? I would call Lebron James a success, but I would never call him a leader. A leader would have stayed in Cleveland.

I've taught at one of the lowest performing schools and the highest one in our county, and great people were still great at both places.

Doug

Rich Gonzalez
01-25-2013, 10:19 AM
Three Trees,

I'm assuming your post is saying from a parent's perspective in summary "Is it fair to leave great kids at bad schools with bad coaches? Why shouldn't they transfer to find the best position for them and their future?"

As a parent myself, I get that. A couple things to think about:

1. If your kid is good, why not have them become the foundation for success at their school?

2. No parent support for the coaches? Why don't you be the person that organizes/creates the booster group? The person that calls all of the other parents and gets them involved. The person that stands up and says that you will support them and their vision.

3. Your coach isn't good? What have you done to support that coach? Are you raising money to help the team afford better uniforms, better meets, more assistants, team camps? Are you encouraging your coach to go to LA84 clinics? Do you nicely offer to go with them so you can all learn and improve? Do you volunteer as an assistant? Do you help the coach call all incoming 9th graders and encourage them to join the team?

At the end of the day, transferring is the easy route for your child. Why not challenge them to be the person that changes the culture of the team/program/school? Why not teach your child to be the leader that the team needs to be successful? At the end of the day all parents must take responsibility for their child's school and the success or failures that happen there.

Being on an all-star team is fun, winning is fun, but does it teach your child the right lessons? Does it teach them to be a leader? I would call Lebron James a success, but I would never call him a leader. A leader would have stayed in Cleveland.

I've taught at one of the lowest performing schools and the highest one in our county, and great people were still great at both places.

Doug

Now there's a Five Star post right there!

Thanks, Mr. Doug Soles!

Albert Caruana
01-26-2013, 10:30 AM
I think there is a big difference between outright cheating and coaching inaptitude.

Rich Gonzalez
01-26-2013, 03:45 PM
My goodness! I'll need to pack a lunch and be sure to read this one later today. Thanks for your extensive input!
Doug,

I echo the thought. That was a Five Star post. Every once in a long while you get a post that is thought-provoking and insightful. Youíre an excellent coach and clearly a very caring, thoughtful and perceptive person. So please, forgive my indiscretions. We both originally made light of a weighty issue, one that to me is very near and dear for so many reasons. This particular CIF issue implicates so many other important issues like discrimination, disabilities and public funding that I could go on for hours.

Most coaches look at this issue from only one perspective and fail to grasp the real struggle between the education (sports) establishment and the students (athletes). They typically frame it as a ďme-firstĒ issue. But thereís a fairly significant referential issue here, and coaches seem to only look at it from their perspective. Try looking at it from other perspective and you may begin to question who the "me" is in this "me-first" picture.

Let me give you an extreme illustration of the issue. A fifth grade girl has shown tremendous promise in a particular discipline. She can attend her local public school where they have an honors track, and she will simply move along with the other kids in her class. However, the neighboring public school (not more than 5 miles away) has some innovative educators. If she attends the neighboring school she automatically skips a grade in this discipline. No petitioning necessary. Her parents dearly want her to attend the local school (her friends go there, they support local public education, and itís so close to home). She's been advanced in this area for a very long time. Until now they've managed to find other ways to challenge her, but schools take on a greater role from middle school on. So they respectfully discuss with the local school the option of skipping a grade in this discipline like she could at the neighboring school. The school is adamantly opposed. They are absolutely not set up for it. They have a way of doing things, and that's absolutely, positively, not the way they do things here. And they are so certain of the detrimental effects that no matter how many meetings with the parents and tests the kid takes, the school is not budging. Believing the local school is still the best option, the parents go along. They try to make it work. They hope that she will be challenged. But it doesn't and she isn't. She attends the local school and is bored beyond tears. The school is intransigent on the matter, and it affects her so negatively that there is little option but to transfer. She does. And fortunately she knows so many kids at the neighboring school that it's not an issue. Fast forward 6 years. She ends her high school career with 5s on the four AP tests in this discipline and she completes 6 college courses in this subject, all taken at 2 of the premier universities in the nation. Half of the college courses are upper division classes against college juniors and seniors, and sheís getting the top marks. The girl is accepted to a top-5 university in the nation in this discipline and she can start at the graduate level.

Interesting story, yes? Amazing yet, it's a true story. There's even a postscript to the story for the original school. Two years after she transferred, the first school adopted a policy like the neighboring school of advancing kids that show promise in this discipline. The original intransigence of the school was a little misplaced.

I'm not sure if the story is inspiring or just sad. She had to overcome incredible odds and immense institutional bias. The fact is, had she followed the lead of the first counselor thereís a 50% chance she would have attended a very good state college, but just as likely she would have attended a very good community college. A university, let alone a premier university, wasn't even in the cards.

Did she make the right choice? Whoís to say? She thought so. She was truly inspired. Did the first counselor have the right to stand in her way? Did the counselor really know so much about this discipline that there was only one correct path (her path) that the kid should follow? Did she know so much that other counselors in the land lined up just to hear her wisdom? Was she an Olympic-caliber counselor? Not really. She was just your typical counselor who was doing her job and naturally, thought she was right. And the school stood 100% behind her.

Thereís nothing magic in that story. Although the facts are extreme, that story applies to tens of millions of kids and parents. This is where I draw the line on the school-choice and transfer discussion. Most coaches (present company excepted) are not Olympic-caliber coaches that kids line up to play for. They are your typical coaches, simply doing their jobs. I donít find it particularly surprising that on a few occasions this means they become impediments to a kidís passion or success. But not all great students (or athletes) can overcome those odds. If youíre a great quarterback (say, a former NFL quarterbackís son), do you stay at a school where you may not start or may wind up handing the ball off to incredibly gifted backs, do you take your chances that all will magically work out, or do you transfer to a southland powerhouse where you can learn from an incredibly gifted quarterback coaching staff and it results in your receiving a scholarship from a top tier college.

I donít mean to trivialize the difference between athletics and academics. Academics are clearly far more important, and many coaches will dismiss the analogy and say it has no application to sports. But we both recognize that to some kids, sports can mean everything. Itís where they see and make friends. Ask most athletes and theyíll tell you they care more about their sports class than they or almost anyone could ever care about a history class. Many athletes spend 4 years x 40 weeks x 3 hours with a coach. Typically itís more than 2,500 hours over their high school career with a coach. Compare that with a mere 100 hours with another teacher (perhaps 200 if itís a yearlong course). When you add in the life lessons that a coach can impart, itís easy to recognize the importance of athletics (and of a particular coach) to the athletes and why athletes care so much about their coach.

This really is not about a school (or coach) thatís bad. I donít think itís necessary to make inherently subjective or judgmental calls to make the point. I don't think anyone would disagree that the girl made the right move in transferring. I also don't think that the counselor was bad. She was simply misinformed. Misdirected maybe. The story was about a school (or coach) that was an impediment to the kidís passion or success. In my illustration, had the first school simply let her advance to the next grade, she would have succeeded. Because youíre right, great students (athletes), if given the opportunity, will be stars no matter where they go. But the operative language there was "given the opportunity." In my illustration, the first school actually put up roadblocks. They were impediments to her passion and success.

How many coaches can appreciate the analogy? Even you, a very bright and caring coach, frame the issue in terms of the school having a ďbad coach.Ē I donít. I donít even assume that the coach had become an impediment. I assume that the athlete needs something different (for whatever reason). I think itís a travesty when the kids leave their local community. It evidences a failing in the system. But I also think thereís absolutely no rational or justifiable reason to stand in their way.

I see a lot parallels in the above story to this CIF issue. Coaches frame it as a "me first" issue, but step back for a moment. Take a deep breadth. Consider the issue for more than a day or two. Really analyze who is the "me" in this picture. You may just be surprised.

All the best this season,

trkcoach53
01-27-2013, 01:23 PM
Regarding this issue, I was once in a conversation with a JC Football Assistant and we got in a discussion regarding this issue. His observation about a local public school power that sent players to his program was that it was amazing to him how many of this school's athletes did not list home cities that were even in the school district of said high school. This is annually in the CIF Playoff's and in contention for Division Championships in fb.

:cool:

Albert Caruana
01-28-2013, 09:32 AM
However you justify it, the fact of the matter is that recruiting is still illegal in high school. So, if teams are out there actively recruiting students, they are cheating.

Doug Soles
01-28-2013, 09:55 AM
Three Trees,

I think there are many valid points about letting parents and athletes choose the school at which they attend. Many people recently have felt this is the best way to do it. Charter schools have been pushed in many areas as the solution to the public school system, unfortunately many have failed in the first couple of years. It is easy to ponder an idea and come up with a solution for such scenarios, but as charter schools are showing, something that sounds good on paper or in your head doesn't always fix a problem.

First off, recruiting athletes to move from one school to another is cheating. Not because we are power hungry or offended coaches, but because it is against the rules. Those rules were in play a long time before I showed up in California, and I'm sure they will be here for many years after I'm gone. Why do those rules exist? Because athletics were created and are used as an educational component in the public school system. They are not a career goal avenue in the school, although some kids can certainly use them that way if they have the physical ability. They are there to teach athletes honor, loyalty, sportsmanship, and teamwork. I think the bigger question is do we stay with CIF and FOLLOW their rules, or do we scrap the system and go to a club based system. In a club system, only the best coaches and athletes would survive.

Club System:
-Athletes choose their teams and coaches.
-Parents would pay at least a couple thousand a year in team fees (limiting participation to athletes that can afford to pay to play).
-Athletes would come in and out of different club teams on a regular basis trying to find the right fit. Loyalty becomes a thing of the past.
-Top end performances in the sport theoretically should improve as teams become more competitive.
-Any athlete can be on the team, even if they are failing all of their classes or have dropped out of HS altogether.

High School System:
-More athletes are able to compete in this system.
-The sports tend to be way cheaper to participate in with fundraising and donations running more and more programs.
-Athletes tend to be stuck with the coaching staff provided by the school, which may not always be a perfect fit.
-Loyalty to one's school where they are already getting an education is important.
-Athletes learn how to work together for one common cause (the success of their school) which creates school pride.
-Top end performances stay at current levels.
-The sports are tied into the child's education, so grades and attendance at school matter greatly in their eligibility.
-Higher level of TEAM buy in vs. club where the athletes will just leave if they don't get the position/roster spot/playing time they think they should. Teamwork for these athletes is taught and used.

I work with many club soccer players and am constantly amazed at the movement from team to team trying to find a good fit. Parents push for what they want to see and bail on the team if they do not get it. Teams disolve and reform as other entities all the time based on available athletes and politics. When many of these club athletes try out for a high school team, they get placed in lower divisions than they expect or get cut. Why is the club coach keeping them on? Money. In a club system every athlete is money in their pocket. It is hard to challenge kids when you are afraid you will work them too hard and they might quit...Money runs club, not ethics, not loyalty, not education.

Ultimately, if we were to scrap CIF and go to 100% club system, no holds barred on recruiting and who we coached it would be better for some coaches and athletes and way worse for many more. I would make a lot more money than I currently do coaching, that is for sure if we went to a club system. People would have to pay me what I am worth, not a generalized stipend that doesn't take into account team success, number of years coaching, etc. Ultimately, I currently coach in CIF and Club during the year and I can tell you the kids perform a lot better in their HS uniform. Why? They care about their school. I'm sure it isn't that way everywhere, but I think it is a lot more than many realize. Do you think learning loyalty and teamwork are important? I know I want my children focused on them in their education more than their athletics.

I personally do not think that opening up HS athletics to an open recruiting system would improve what we currently do. If I were thinking "Me-first" I would want it to move to club for the money. I prefer to keep the system the way it is because in the long run I believe it will be the most beneficial to the most kids and their education.

Doug

cush
01-28-2013, 04:00 PM
to steal and repeat liam's brevity:
amen.

Doug Soles
01-29-2013, 09:22 AM
Three Trees,

I'll post my final thoughts as well. :)

I think you have some very good points (would probably be more valid if you put a name to it instead of three trees, but that is your call). If they opened it up to a free for all for athletes and I could call anyone I wanted to try to get them to come run for me, I would do that and build the best team possible based on the rules. The problem and frustration caused by the current situation is that you have some coaches who do that now, and some coaches who do not. The ones that are currently following the rules are at a disadvantage to the ones that don't.

I see many potential problems with a totally open recruiting system. One big one is that it kills the real team concept. All-star teams do not always play well together (Exhibit A: The Lakers) compared to teams that are bonded and developed together and have a common interest (the school) tieing them together. In a grass is always greener society, I think we would see the foundations of building a team crumble fast. Loyalty would be gone from coach to athlete and athlete to coach. I think a lot of top athletes would be switching schools often, with this coach or that coach wooing them with nicer facilities, a better role on the team, less miles or more miles, etc. I can understand how that makes sense in the adult world, but in the HS world with children I'm not sure it has a place.

What is the purpose of high school athletics? What are we trying to accomplish? Is chasing a scholarship the goal? Building character and teamwork? At some point these questions have to be asked and answered, using the answer as the foundation for the rules.

I liken most of your arguments to a plan that sounds good on paper, but one that won't work in the real world (again...charter schools). Chaos does not bring happiness to people, even if it sounds good on paper. A parent can give their 5 year old a choice in everything, but is that always the right thing to do? Sometimes the parent needs to make the decision and set the rules and create order for their child. CIF is trying to do that for HS Sports (along with every other states governing body). These rules exist for reason, and many because they were trying fix many of the things you feel should be unregulated in the past. The reality is, all parents and athletes have open enrollment to any school they want to go to. They just need to pick up and move to that area or pay that private school tuition. If a parent deems a move necessary for the betterment of their child, that makes sense to me. Physically move your son or daughter into that district and buy in. Fake addresses, all-star transfers, etc. have no place in high school athletics. I'll go back to my 2nd post...I personally think it is more important to teach a child to be a leader than it is for them to take the easy way out and play on an all-star team or for us to build all-star teams. I have a few of these soccer all-stars in my PE classes and they are on the best teams and play at high levels. None of them seem nearly as happy as you would think they would for all of their successes...they seem to have missed something along the way. What do you think that is?

Thank you,

Doug

RichEde
01-30-2013, 02:13 PM
Personally, I would follow the academic model and add one more vital change to the list, which would not only increase athletic participation but right some social injustice:

- Athletes can compete in individual sports (e.g., tennis, swimming and track) without any high school affiliation. Presently, any student can compete in the Scripps Howard Spelling Bee, the AMC10/12, the Computing Olympiad, and most academic contests. This would address the discrimination faced by athletes with disabilities and homeschoolers.



That option currently exists in individual sports in CIF.

rnrdad
02-01-2013, 11:16 AM
There are some very good club coaches and some very good School coaches. The same for club and school teams. Heck some are one and the same. The two can co-exist and be of great benefit to the student who is also a dedicated and\or gifted athlete. It does not have to be, and SHOULD not be a one or the other world.

A strong academic background is essential. We all know about great and gifted athletes that excelled in sports but did not get the academic attention (or were allowed to skate by) and after high school, even if initially accepted at name colleges\universities, faded from sight. This is the worst sin of all and any coach or school (club or CIF), that allowed this to happen should be publicly shamed. This is not about how it used to be, but how it still is and we all know it.

The Department of Education announcment regarding disabled athletes is the next step in actually meaning this is a country of opportunity for everyone willing to try. If you can't buy into this, then maybe you need to go back to no women, including your mother, wife, daughter, no different religions, races, people over 40, or anyone else not like me allowed to live\work\learn here.

How many of us saw the kid with two prosthetic legs run the MT SAC Youth meet and turned to our kids and said "Wow, isn't he inspirational and brave?" I have heard some awesome coaches at LA84 clinics talk about how they have disabled kids on their teams and how it benefits everyone.

Yes CIF allows indiividuals to compete in club\NIKE\Footlocker\etc meets as individuals during CIF season. Yes CIF does require academic standards to compete in CIF sports. Yes, undue influence\recruiting is illegal and should not happen, but maybe that needs to be looked at a little bit.

Maybe any school or coach that does not insure that all athletes get a strong academic background, and help when needed, should not be in CIF. Maybe that might reduce some undue influence\recruiting. On the other hand, schools and coaches that produce both good athletes and strong academics might be the schools kids and parents want to go to. Hey, maybe the clubs will start steering the kids to them!!!

I think most parents, like most coaches, really do want their kids to do well in life, not just high school.

Hal Harkness
02-03-2013, 12:12 PM
It seems the Department of Education might be at odds with the Supreme Court if it has declared participated in high school sports a right and not a privilege. In the landmark Steffes decision of the mid-90's, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled against Steffes and firmly declared that participation was not a right, but a privilege and subject to rules set up by governing bodies.

Hal Harkness
02-03-2013, 12:41 PM
Here is the link to the U.S. District Court of Appeals written decision (later upheld by the U.S. Supreme Court) affirming participation in high school sports a privilege, not a right. Sorry, the original decision was 1986, not mid-90's.

Hal Harkness
02-03-2013, 12:42 PM
http://www.lawlink.com/research/CaseLevel3/62766 (Would help to include the link.

Hal Harkness
02-03-2013, 12:53 PM
To the contrary, it did reach the U.S. Supreme Court and they refused to hear it, sustaining the decision of the lower court. The upshot of the ruling was to affirm that State Associations had the authority to enact rules to govern high school athletics and as long as due process was followed, the court refused to get involved in the nature of the rules. I have not heard of any legal decision since 1986 that is contrary to this principle. Youngsters with disabilities fall under the ADA and high schools have always been encouraged to try to accommodate as many students with disabilities as possible.

RichEde
02-03-2013, 01:33 PM
A bit of (ancient) history. Interscholastic sports grew out of the desire/need to provide an "outlet" for the exceptional athlete who was not being challenged by schools' intramural programs. Everyone else was supposed to derive the benefits of competitive sports through those intramural programs. Since it is the rare high school that offers an intramural program, the interscholastic program has become the default outlet for everyone so the DOE ruling simply puts that onus onto the interscholastic programs.

Hal Harkness
02-03-2013, 01:33 PM
Any time the U.S. Supreme Court refuses to hear a case based upon a lower court decision, they are affirming that decision and it stands as precedent in that area. The court only hears cases where a majority of justices wish to examine the original decision and rule whether or not to overturn it.

Hal Harkness
02-03-2013, 02:10 PM
Actually it was while I was on the LA Interscholastic Athletics Committee (Section Board of Managers) as a coaches association rep. The committee made the original decision in 1985, denying Steffes transfer eligibility from Brentwood (SS) to Palisades High School. That was a year before I became LA Section Commissioner in October of 1986. It did actually go all the way up the ladder to the Supreme Court in the late 80's and they refused to hear it. From the CIF (State Association side) it was a landmark decision, the first that actually dealt with clarifying the privilege/right issue with extra-curricular activities and rules that govern transfers, etc. My original purpose was to point out the conflict between this decision and the DOE's declaration that participation was a "right". The only right that I'm aware of is to a basic education and no where has that been pushed by court decision past the classroom to any extra-curricular activities, athletes being just one of many.

Doug Soles
02-04-2013, 07:42 AM
"I'm really curious now how the CIF takes up the issue of recruiting/tampering. I'm curious how they address transfers/choice now." [/quote]

I think CIF has really made their stance on both pretty clear recently:

Recruiting/tampering - They don't want you to do it but really won't do anything about it unless is such an obvious example that they have to act, then they will. Otherwise it is heresay and they turn a blind eye. I've talked with CIF officials about the track teams that cheat constantly, they know about them and could name most of them before I even said a team name, they are just not going to do anything about them. Sad but true.

Transfers/choice - CIF has allowed people to transfer, sit out for the first month of competition and then join the team. Seems like they have said feel free to transfer one time as needed, which isn't a bad rule conceptually.

Ultimately it is the programs that are going out and recruiting the superstars from the youth track scene that really ruin it for everyone else. Transfers happen, and we get them. Recruiting is not an accident though, and specific programs go out of their way to end up with top athletes that shouldn't be going to their school. Like I've said before, it isn't hard to check the middle schools of everyone on a roster...

Doug

rnrdad
02-04-2013, 02:49 PM
Doug Soles, Three Trees and Remy all make valid points. Overall, I think Remy put it best, especially considering the last post by Sole, and the "transfer once" rule.

Having been a middle school and club coach, it has been my overwhelming experience that parents and their kids are looking for the school that can deliver both: strong academics and a program that will develop their kids. They want the best chance to go to University\College and be succesful. Not a one wants a State Championship if it does not lead to success in College.

Parents\kids can go to the neighborhood school, attend a private school, attend a faith based school for personal faith reasons, etc. The sad truth is, however, too many public schools continue to fail on the academic side prompting parents and kids to seek district transfers or apply to the various private schools. However, many simply cannot afford private, limiting options again. It really puts "neigborhood or school loyalty" to a test when the neighborhood school does not provide much of a chance to develop academically or athletically. Most kids are quite loyal to whatever school they end up in.

I suggest a different look at the recruiting issue. No need to track where they came from, but where they went. What happened in college\univeristy? Did they get in? Did they transfer after getting in? Did they graduate? That is what matters.

No parent I know would trade a State High School Athletic Championship for failure in college. Every parent I know wants the school\program that will best prepare their child for succes in life, not in some High School Athletic Competition.

Every parent I know sees sports as a means, not an end, especially at this level.

Track where they went and what happened. Require schools to post that info on their websites. Ban\suspend the schools that fail their athletes academically but win titles with those same athletes. Pretty sure the schools that show a record of academic failure for athletes won't be getting too much recruiting done.

Doug Soles
02-05-2013, 07:44 AM
Doug Soles, Three Trees and Remy all make valid points. Overall, I think Remy put it best, especially considering the last post by Sole, and the "transfer once" rule.

Having been a middle school and club coach, it has been my overwhelming experience that parents and their kids are looking for the school that can deliver both: strong academics and a program that will develop their kids. They want the best chance to go to University\College and be succesful. Not a one wants a State Championship if it does not lead to success in College.

Parents\kids can go to the neighborhood school, attend a private school, attend a faith based school for personal faith reasons, etc. The sad truth is, however, too many public schools continue to fail on the academic side prompting parents and kids to seek district transfers or apply to the various private schools. However, many simply cannot afford private, limiting options again. It really puts "neigborhood or school loyalty" to a test when the neighborhood school does not provide much of a chance to develop academically or athletically. Most kids are quite loyal to whatever school they end up in.

I suggest a different look at the recruiting issue. No need to track where they came from, but where they went. What happened in college\univeristy? Did they get in? Did they transfer after getting in? Did they graduate? That is what matters.

No parent I know would trade a State High School Athletic Championship for failure in college. Every parent I know wants the school\program that will best prepare their child for succes in life, not in some High School Athletic Competition.

Every parent I know sees sports as a means, not an end, especially at this level.

Track where they went and what happened. Require schools to post that info on their websites. Ban\suspend the schools that fail their athletes academically but win titles with those same athletes. Pretty sure the schools that show a record of academic failure for athletes won't be getting too much recruiting done.

Yep, keep chasing that scholarship. That is all that matters...

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/highschool-prep-rally/ccse-prep-francis-ngissah-duped-one-potential-division-195115215.html

Ed Winczowski
02-05-2013, 08:36 AM
Threetrees, so when the day comes that schools out there are online, have only 15 students, and are state champs in basketball, do you think that would be alright? Off of the top of my head I believe you only have to have 14 students to be accredited. How about 20 kids and they are all sprinters and...well you get the picture. That's where you want to see the world go? The basketball example I know for a fact has been inquired about in another state.

rnrdad
02-05-2013, 08:44 AM
Yep, keep chasing that scholarship. That is all that matters...

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/highschool-prep-rally/ccse-prep-francis-ngissah-duped-one-potential-division-195115215.html

When it is your way or the highway I guess all you can see is your way.

High School is a steppingstone to College. If your high school can't preapre you for college then you need to find a different one if at all possible.

Sports can teach you in a relatively short time some valuable life lessons, as do other activities.

YES, chase the grades and the scholarships - academics, music, debate and sports and whatever else you might be able to get to succeed in life.

Education is the best chance to improve your life.

Any coach or team - club or CIF - that uses a kid for a title and does not develop that kid both academically and athletically is cheating that kids. In Club people will stop joining. In CIF, they should be suspended or banned.

Are you seriously saying that a parent and their kids should "be loyal" to their neighborhood school and ignore an opportunity to do better? Do not try to get a scholarship? Do not go somewhere else if they have a better shot at going to college?

Wow.

Keith Chann
02-05-2013, 08:46 AM
The sad truth is, however, too many public schools continue to fail on the academic side prompting parents and kids to seek district transfers or apply to the various private schools. However, many simply cannot afford private, limiting options again. It really puts "neigborhood or school loyalty" to a test when the neighborhood school does not provide much of a chance to develop academically or athletically.

I love it when so many people continue to say that the public schools continue to fail the students. These people should all spend a week in the schools that they criticize so vehemently and see the real truth: Students who do not come prepared, students who do not do homework, students who do not try to participate, parents who see school as free day-care, parents who expect the teachers to raise their kids, lack of discipline and respect, etc., etc.

I teach in a school that many would consider "under-priviliged" or perhaps even one of the failing schools. In the past few years we have sent people to many prestigious schools across the country. The students can get a great education anywhere. Sometimes they need to do their part. Sometimes the parents need to seize the opportunities that are around instead of always seeing the "greener" grass somewhere else. Sometimes students need to take responsibility for their own education.
We are certainly not in a place to recruit anyone to my school, in fact we lose many. I coach anyone who shows up and commits to the team. I may not be the best coach but I try to educate myself. If someone at another school needs to recruit an athlete away from our program, I would be disappointed but I would move on and coach those who want to be here. The issue is divisive and never will be agreed upon by all interested parties. However, I am not sure that we should be teaching our kids that it is perfectly fine to shop their services to the highest bidder and then perhaps the next season go somewhere else.

Doug Soles
02-05-2013, 09:39 AM
When it is your way or the highway I guess all you can see is your way.

High School is a steppingstone to College. If your high school can't preapre you for college then you need to find a different one if at all possible.

Sports can teach you in a relatively short time some valuable life lessons, as do other activities.

YES, chase the grades and the scholarships - academics, music, debate and sports and whatever else you might be able to get to succeed in life.

Education is the best chance to improve your life.

Any coach or team - club or CIF - that uses a kid for a title and does not develop that kid both academically and athletically is cheating that kids. In Club people will stop joining. In CIF, they should be suspended or banned.

Are you seriously saying that a parent and their kids should "be loyal" to their neighborhood school and ignore an opportunity to do better? Do not try to get a scholarship? Do not go somewhere else if they have a better shot at going to college?

Wow.

I completely agree, education is the best chance to improve your life. I personally am an example of that.


But I am showing an example (in my last post) of how chasing a scholarship in many ways is getting ridiculous. High School athletics are not irrelivant, not just a stepping stone for people who want to try to use the system for their "scholarship." That attitude is a major part of the issue we see in sports these days. My teams have been very successful, am I one of the coaches that "uses" kids to win at CIF? I'm not quite sure how a kid is used by a high school sport? Did the kid sign up for the sport and choose to be on the team? Who is using who? Are the Lakers using Kobe Bryant??? That poor bastard...

Our athletes set the goals for the team, which usually includes trying to win a state title. We as coaches work as hard as we can to coach them to the level they have asked. Are there bad coaches out there that overrun athletes? Sure there are. But to say coaches are "using" athletes to win a league or state title just isn't logical. People that voluntarily sign up to be part of a high school sports TEAM are not pro athletes that are so stellar that they demand special performance options listed in a contract. They are high school kids, getting a high school education, on high school teams. If they are above that, Mary Cain has shown them their other options.

Why are kids sent to local schools? Their parents live there! I can tell you when I bought my house, one of the first things I thought about was where my kids would attend school long term, and I didn't even have kids yet! Should the kids go to that school? Yes! Don't like it? Move to a place that is better situated for your family.

-Sending kids across the country to go to a fake high school to focus on basketball in hopes of a basketball scholarship? Wrong.

-Giving false addresses to attend a different school with better athletic programs in hopes of a scholarship? Wrong.

-Creating all-star teams at private schools and using scholarships as an excuse? Wrong.

-Accusing a coach of "using" athletes on their roster to win? Wrong.

Local schools improve when the "best" people that should be going to them stay and build them up. It is difficult to do, no doubt. So is being a leader.

Feel free to check on the scholarship opportunities my over "used" and under appreciated athletes get on a daily basis.

Doug

rnrdad
02-05-2013, 09:46 AM
I love it when so many people continue to say that the public schools continue to fail the students. These people should all spend a week in the schools that they criticize so vehemently and see the real truth: Students who do not come prepared, students who do not do homework, students who do not try to participate, parents who see school as free day-care, parents who expect the teachers to raise their kids, lack of discipline and respect, etc., etc.

I teach in a school that many would consider "under-priviliged" or perhaps even one of the failing schools. In the past few years we have sent people to many prestigious schools across the country. The students can get a great education anywhere. Sometimes they need to do their part. Sometimes the parents need to seize the opportunities that are around instead of always seeing the "greener" grass somewhere else. Sometimes students need to take responsibility for their own education.
We are certainly not in a place to recruit anyone to my school, in fact we lose many. I coach anyone who shows up and commits to the team. I may not be the best coach but I try to educate myself. If someone at another school needs to recruit an athlete away from our program, I would be disappointed but I would move on and coach those who want to be here. The issue is divisive and never will be agreed upon by all interested parties. However, I am not sure that we should be teaching our kids that it is perfectly fine to shop their services to the highest bidder and then perhaps the next season go somewhere else.

There are more very good, and outstanding, public schools than failing ones. But there are those poorly performing that do exist. You are absolutely right that there are also a lot of "failing" parents. And Yes, ultimately it is up to each kid to do what they need to do.

Taking responsiblilty for themselves is exactly what I am talking about. I read a study not long ago that the majority of Ivy Leagues Students came from public schools. Yes, in a better world parents and kids would work with teachers to improve even the lesser schools and everyone would benefit.

As I have tried to point out is that even the big name schools are not what they sell themselves to be, because a number of their superstars fail after high school because they weren't prepared. No one hears about that, so the myth continues and they get the studs and keep the myth alive.

Rather than restrict choice, allow those who want to truly try to choose what may be best for them. Let them make an informed decision by knowing how well that school prepared others like them for success in college.

You, Soles, Remy, and the others who usually post here are well recognized and respected becasue you do care and do an excellent job with your kids. Disagreement and discussion is healthy.

rnrdad
02-05-2013, 10:10 AM
I completely agree, education is the best chance to improve your life. I personally am an example of that.


But I am showing an example (in my last post) of how chasing a scholarship in many ways is getting ridiculous. High School athletics are not irrelivant, not just a stepping stone for people who want to try to use the system for their "scholarship." That attitude is a major part of the issue we see in sports these days. My teams have been very successful, am I one of the coaches that "uses" kids to win at CIF? I'm not quite sure how a kid is used by a high school sport? Did the kid sign up for the sport and choose to be on the team? Who is using who? Are the Lakers using Kobe Bryant??? That poor bastard...

Our athletes set the goals for the team, which usually includes trying to win a state title. We as coaches work as hard as we can to coach them to the level they have asked. Are there bad coaches out there that overrun athletes? Sure there are. But to say coaches are "using" athletes to win a league or state title just isn't logical. People that voluntarily sign up to be part of a high school sports TEAM are not pro athletes that are so stellar that they demand special performance options listed in a contract. They are high school kids, getting a high school education, on high school teams. If they are above that, Mary Cain has shown them their other options.

Why are kids sent to local schools? Their parents live there! I can tell you when I bought my house, one of the first things I thought about was where my kids would attend school long term, and I didn't even have kids yet! Should the kids go to that school? Yes! Don't like it? Move to a place that is better situated for your family.

-Sending kids across the country to go to a fake high school to focus on basketball in hopes of a basketball scholarship? Wrong.

-Giving false addresses to attend a different school with better athletic programs in hopes of a scholarship? Wrong.

-Creating all-star teams at private schools and using scholarships as an excuse? Wrong.

-Accusing a coach of "using" athletes on their roster to win? Wrong.

Local schools improve when the "best" people that should be going to them stay and build them up. It is difficult to do, no doubt. So is being a leader.

Feel free to check on the scholarship opportunities my over "used" and under appreciated athletes get on a daily basis.

Doug


Everyone knows that your school and your teams do very well and that your kids do well after high school. No one is accusing you of abusing your kids.

Not everyone gets to choose where they live, or has the luxury of just getting up and moving. Maybe because education helped you, you have that luxury.

You are complaining about those cheating schools that recruit. As I have said about 3 times now, parents I know want their kids to go to college and graduate, but they have to go high school, (maybe other than Ms. Cain, but is that wise?) in order to get to college. That is the steppingstone. Many people go to private schools for faith and other reasons other than to get merely athletic scholarships. Many families choose to drvie long distances becasue the school they choose meets many needs, not just athletic titles or scholarships. That is their choice.

As to athletic recruiting, it is wrong and should be stopped, but those that cheat their athletes by using them to win titles but not educating them should be stopped. Where do you get I am accusing you of doing that?

Choosing a High School is not recruiting, even if it is not your neighborhood school. Choosing based on false information is usually not an informed choice.

Choice is something that should not taken away. Again: those that use athletes for titles but do not educate them should not have athletes to chase titles with. Not you, Mr. Soles, but those cheating schools you are complaining about.

Doug Soles
02-05-2013, 10:25 AM
Everyone knows that your school and your teams do very well and that your kids do well after high school. No one is accusing you of abusing your kids.

Not everyone gets to choose where they live, or has the luxury of just getting up and moving. Maybe because education helped you, you have that luxury.

You are complaining about those cheating schools that recruit. As I have said about 3 times now, parents I know want their kids to go to college and graduate, but they have to go high school, (maybe other than Ms. Cain, but is that wise?) in order to get to college. That is the steppingstone. Many people go to private schools for faith and other reasons other than to get merely athletic scholarships. Many families choose to drvie long distances becasue the school they choose meets many needs, not just athletic titles or scholarships. That is their choice.

As to athletic recruiting, it is wrong and should be stopped, but those that cheat their athletes by using them to win titles but not educating them should be stopped. Where do you get I am accusing you of doing that?

Choosing a High School is not recruiting, even if it is not your neighborhood school. Choosing based on false information is usually not an informed choice.

Choice is something that should not taken away. Again: those that use athletes for titles but do not educate them should not have athletes to chase titles with. Not you, Mr. Soles, but those cheating schools you are complaining about.

I agree, thank you for clarifying.

Understand that I haven't always taught at Great Oak. As teachers we see many different schools over our time as educators, we live in many different communities. I expected the same thing from kids at my last school as I do here, although they weren't nearly as priviliged. Coaches like Keith do an amazing job in some difficult situations.

I wholeheartedly agree that people should go after the best education that they can. What I have seen with many athletes and families is that they are chasing the scholarship and do not have the school or their education in mind at all. They are just using it as a stepping stone. We overheard one of these big name transfers last year at CIF walking with her friends talking about how she didn't try in a relay race because she didn't care about the school or her team and would probably transfer next year anyway. We just looked at each other and were thankful for homegrown kids that do respect their school, coaches, and teammates. Sure enough she transferred, and I am sure her education had nothing to do with it. It isn't always the coaches or the schools that are the problem, sometimes it is the parents and the athletes.

Nothing like a healthy discussion to get the old message boards back up and running for track season! :)

Doug

rnrdad
02-05-2013, 03:43 PM
Wow. Go away for a day or two and the board lights up . . .

I expect virtual schools to dramatically change the sports landscape. I hope for the better. I look to them to provide not only better choice, but they hold the potential for far better educational opportunities. The better question is, what happens when a Southland football power opens up their virtual school to anyone?

And if a tremendous player wants to play for a well-regarded coach that can build his skills, all the better. Weíre not all the same. The school districts cannot excel at everything. We need choice for those that wish to specialize. Whether itís in a particular educational discipline (as in my initial illustration), or sports, why do we need to tell others whatís best for them? And if it means that we need to realign the leagues or establish new divisions to deal with the differentiation among teams, Iím all for it.

And yes, we can many examples where that system will fail. The kids, as in Dougís example, will regret their decision. There was an even better example a few months back where the son of a well-known NBA player lost his college eligibility at a D1 school because the NCAA ruled that the classes were essentially non-existent. Many of the schoolís classes were nothing more than a charade. And BTW, I can think of a few public schools classes that my kids took that were also nothing more than a charade. Some school districts still require as part of graduation a class or two that is entirely meaningless. We will see more of these cases come up, and some will be truly spectacular failures.

But at the same time, if we publicized the failings of every public school in California, we could possibly double the size of the Internet. And there are plenty of stories of abusive coaches in both the public schools as well (think alcohol, drugs, molestation). I read on another running site a few months back a list of 20 or so coaching abuses. Itís rather disgusting, so letís leave the dueling abuses for another thread.

Let me posit the issue in terms that are a little more tangible to this audience. My community has an interest in the well-being of all of our students, not simply athletes. We invest in the next generation. Shouldn't we restrict all kids that want to transfer? Donít they owe something to the community? Wonít our Math or English classes face lower scores if the above-average kids attend a school that offers a better opportunity for higher SAT and AP scores, or that offers programs that go beyond the AP level? Donít some districts have high schools which have a particular expertise or emphasis, whether itís the sciences or the IB programs? Donít they offer different language courses, and different science courses? Shouldn't we restrict transfers between schools so the kids can help build their local school, rather than take classes that are more ideally suited to their interests or needs? Perhaps we should just make them sit out a year if they want a better education. Shouldn't they be taught to help out our local schools? Isn't that the definition of leadership?

Our local schools also pay teachers and coaches salaries. They continue to develop their education skills with our local schools. They are an integral part of our community. They are beloved and contribute so much to the vitality of our society. But donít we need to keep them in our local community so that they can help us improve? Shouldn't they care about the kids they teach locally? Donít they owe allegiance to our schools? Shouldn't we restrict their ability to transfer for a better opportunity?

Now, Iím not saying we need to go overboard and be excessive about the restrictions we place on teacher/coaches transfers. We need rules that can merely pass a rational basis test. So letís not put up insurmountable hurdles. Letís let them transfer, so long as they sit out from coaching or teaching for a period of time. Letís keep them unemployed (but only for a short period of time). Letís see, the average teacher has an employment lifespan of perhaps 40 years, so, applying the CIF methodology, perhaps we restrict their employment for only 1/4th the time. If we make them sit for 10 years, Iíll bet weíll have fewer transfers. But . . . we need to be mindful of undue hardship, so weíll let them continue their employment if they simply uproot their entire family and move. That seems perfectly reasonable, doesn't it? Let the teachers and coaches show some leadership and stay put. If I heard that as a coach or teacher, I would abandon the profession.

Just kidding. Not really in favor of restricting coaches employment!!!

Three Trees you have a problem.

You refuse to be stuck in the way things were. You insist on seeing how things are changing and how they could be. Even more so, you have this idea that people should have choices and should be able to act in their best interest, whoever they are. You even seem to think that as importants as sports are, there may be other things just as important. What is the example you go on and on about - academics\education? Where does that come from?

You must admit that there are some nefarious parents and kids and schools and coaches yet you insist that change is coming and might even be good.

Are you also claiming that choice is a good thing - for teachers, athletes- parents and that it is not always evil? Aren't you willing to admit that some people may have evil intent and therefore everyone should be restricted?

Say it ain't so, Three Trees!!!!

Doug Soles
02-05-2013, 04:28 PM
Guilty as charged.

So I have another solution. And in keeping with the OP, it’s a bit snarky too. I’m not looked at things with rose-colored glasses anymore. I have to admit there seem to be a few bad apples that ruining it for everyone. I’m sure most coaches would not be overly concerned with a lot of the kids that transfer. It seems to be the really elite athletes that are causing the issues. What do some coaches complain about? That some powerhouses are recruiting. That some are creating all-star teams. That some teams are draining away our local talent. That we can’t compete with all of the big recruiters.

We need to frame the issue? How do we compete against a powerhouse if they keep taking our best talent away? We own these kids, and it’s simply not fair that they leave for somewhere else. So, we’re in luck. There is again precedent for keeping the talent local. It already happens at the college level. It happens in the pros. You can’t simply take the talent away.

The colleges pay the kids scholarships. The pros pay them billions. What we need is a system that provides the proper incentives to stay local, yet doesn't penalize all of the kids that are not really creating the issues.

So, my solution, to draw from the college and pro ranks, is to pay the kids not to transfer. The colleges give them scholarships. The pros give them money. If a kid wants to transfer, have him submit an application to the CIF. The coach/school then would have 15 days to tag him as a franchise athlete. Once tagged, the school could keep him, but the CIF would have to pay 1 year of his college education. Tag him for 4 years and he has an all expense-paid education. No actual cash should ever change hands at the high school level, but providing a student with an education for keeping him local makes a lot of sense. Admittedly, the franchise tag would probably only be used on those athletes that are causing the problems, and the ones that aren’t could transfer without any consequences. Everyone’s happy.

Except the CIF. How can they afford this? I say, let the coaches pay for it from a special fund that’s created by the coaches that transfer. They essentially can buy their freedom with a small payment that would then fund the college education of the kids we hold hostage. We may have a tough time getting this by the Headhunter and Job Seekers of America Union which is clearly in favor of coaching transfers without restriction, and sure, we need to put a better spin on it that I just did, but we’ll set the CIF marketing department to work on that.

I love it.

Guys,

I get your concept of letting people go where they want. You want choice for everything. Ok, we can have that and it is called the club system. Find the coach and the team environment that fit you. Makes sense. I make a ton of money if we move to that scenario so it isn't an issue for me. I would love to charge parents what I am actually worth, as the CIF system gives me to my kids at a major discount.

My argument for the current system is that we all need to be on the same playing field, either we can recruit or we can't. Consistent for all the teams involved which is not currently happening.

Let me know if you get this switch going, I could use the money. :)

Doug

rnrdad
02-06-2013, 07:02 AM
Lists are important.
Results list are important.
Lists of school event records, league titles, State Championships are all very important.

But, in my humble opinion, the list that means more and counts more than any of those lists is the list that is being created today. The list of where the athletes are committing to going to college. That, in my humble opinion, is the true test of the strength of the program and the quality of the school, combined with the effort by the individual and the participation by the parent.

The list that is missing, in order to REALLY see how good a program\school is, assuming individual effort by parent\kids, is the list showing whether these kids graduate from college and when THEN we will know if we should send our kids there.

Sorry, I am insisting that education trumps sports. Sorry, I do think that sports can be a significant part of education, but it is only a part. Sorry, I do think MOST parents and kids want a decent shot at sucess in College\University, not just League and State titles in High School.

Yes, I know everyone has examples of some bad parents and kids.

rnrdad
02-06-2013, 07:27 AM
A few more thoughts.

Public schools complain that private schools have an unfair advantage because they are not restricted geographically.
Want to be able to compete on that basis? Eliminate your geographic restrictions. Oh, that would mean free choice and free transfer in sports as in academics. Oh, that would mean public schools in high rent districts would have to allow kids from poorer districts despite the fact that parents chose the high rent and are paying for it. No moochers and takers here.

Stop making clubs the boogie man for everything. Don't people who can afford it pay for tutors, private music lesson, dance lessons, and private coaches for their kids? What is the real difference?

I keep seeing this vision that Three Trees is actually the woman in the Apple Super Bowl commercial from a few years ago that threw a hammer or something at something.

Change is not coming, it is here. Darn internet.

Doug Soles
02-06-2013, 07:52 AM
A few more thoughts.

Public schools complain that private schools have an unfair advantage because they are not restricted geographically.
Want to be able to compete on that basis? Eliminate your geographic restrictions. Oh, that would mean free choice and free transfer in sports as in academics. Oh, that would mean public schools in high rent districts would have to allow kids from poorer districts despite the fact that parents chose the high rent and are paying for it. No moochers and takers here.

Stop making clubs the boogie man for everything. Don't people who can afford it pay for tutors, private music lesson, dance lessons, and private coaches for their kids? What is the real difference?

I keep seeing this vision that Three Trees is actually the woman in the Apple Super Bowl commercial from a few years ago that threw a hammer or something at something.

Change is not coming, it is here. Darn internet.

Change isn't coming, not in the way you think it is.

You guys have great ideas...in theory. But what happens when we open your scenario up to the real world. Great Oak is the top ranked school API wise in Riverside County and we are pretty good at a few sports. Imagine they lift geographical restrictions and kids can go anywhere they want. How many people are now trying to transfer in at GO? 6000? 8000? We can't provide classrooms or teachers for all those kids. What is the cutoff criteria now for getting into GO? What happens if one of the other local high schools that is built for 3000 kids is now at 1200? How do we support those facilities? Is is a failure to thrive school and we just close it down? Who bites the bullet on that financial loss? Not sure the taxpayers will be happy with that happening.

You guys want to make it out to be a bunch of goon coaches and ADs sitting around a table laughing at how they are screwing kids over. I don't know many coaches or ADs that are like that, quite the contrary actually. Solve the above problem before saying that it is "selfish" coaches that just want to keep the status quo, because that isn't it. Nobody is asking me what they think we should do (else I wouldn't be discussing it on a message board). CIF takes all of these factors into account and tries to come up with rules that make it work for the majority. For the most part I think they do an amazing job and I'm not against the rules. My biggest complaint would be that they need to enforce their rules on those programs that are not playing by them. Other than that, I would say the leadership at CIF and the people we work with like Hal Harkness do an amazing job and truly are trying to do what is best for the majority of kids.

Doug

rnrdad
02-06-2013, 08:48 AM
Please stop taking this so personal. I keep repeating that you and the other coaches posting here, and those not posting, are great people doing a great job. NOBODY is calling you, or anyone else, selfish, abusive, a goon or anything else.

This is an exchange of thoughts and ideas.

As pointed out by a previous poster (who is a great guy doing a great job in difficult circumstances) there are a good number of parents and kids who are not doing anything for themselves. These people will not be trying to transfer to your school.

I think it is pretty clear we are talking about a realtively small group of people who actually look for a school to go to other than their neighborhood school. Isn't this the actual people you are complaininng about?

I really don't think you need to worry about thousands trying to get into your school.

I try to make it pretty clear that I agree rules should be enforced, or maybe the rules need to be changed, but that the bottom line is education and success in College. Again, for the masses, maybe that is not a concern, but for those to whom it matters, it is of the utmost concern.

I merely suggest that the criteria, and the rules should reflect that.

I agree that if a kid can transfer for academic reasons, then they should be allowed to transfer for sports reasons, BUT if the school that is benefittting from sports transfers fails to educate those athletic transfers, then they should not be in CIF.

Even though I keep trying very hard to make it clear that you, other coaches, public schools in general, are not being accused of being bad I am making suggestions on how to deal with some real problems.

Without saying that you are bad I repeat: Education first, sports second, Choice is neccesary, accurate information is critical, parents and kids that are involved and trying should be able to choose the High School they think is best for their kids.

Now, make the rules comply with that.

Hal Harkness
02-06-2013, 09:00 AM
The reference to "CIF" is interesting. CIF, both on the State and Southern Section level are administrative bodies. The membership proposes and enacts rules and the membership consists of schools (Superintendents, Principals, Athletic Directors and Coaches). Like the NCAA, which often gets a lot of heat, nothing happens that doesn't have the support of membership.

rnrdad
02-06-2013, 09:01 AM
I bet you the "API transfers" are already at your school.
If the athletic transfers have already figured out how to get to your school, then they don't need to counted in the new ones that might come if restrictions are listed.
I think there are a lot of other pretty good academic and sports schools that some kids might want to transfer to becasue they may be closer to them, or on the way to their parent's work.

Understand I am not attacking you or your school. You both really do have stellar reputations, but there are others.

rnrdad
02-06-2013, 09:30 AM
To everyone who complains about sports transfers. I am certain that there has never been a kid who transferred into your school on an academic basis that ever took your sports program into account as part of the reason they wanted to transfer, but knew better than to say so and that you have made certain that those academic tranfers were never allowed to be a significant contributor to your sport team (at least for a year) before CIF said they could if they sat out 30 days.

Not accusing.

Keith Chann
02-06-2013, 09:45 AM
This is obviously an issue that has more than 2 sides. There are many different factors influencing opinions here. One thing that has been agreed upon is that the current system clearly has schools breaking the current rules with apparently no penalty. Whether you agree with the rules as they currently exist or not, it is not debateable that there are schools that provide "undue influence" over athletes in order to gain a competitive advantage. There are many doomsday scenarios as to what might happen if recruiting was universally allowed but unless that happens we may never actually know how such a system would work out.
It would certainly take several years for everything to shake out.

I am more in-line with how Doug has presented the side of no recruiting should be allowed and think that schools should be punished for breaking the current rules.

I do not want to move to a scenario where we build all-star teams with only those kids who could afford to live in the correct area or transport themselves to the right coach. This would cause a huge divide in the economic classes of athletes. Parents that can afford to move to certain areas to provide what they consider a better school for their kids already do. If this was opened up for all athletes to go to any school that recruited them what would stop a kid from going to one school for football season, another for basketball season and then a third for baseball? When those schools graduate top talent what will prevent the same kid from going to 3 different schools the next year to be a part of championship contending programs?

Albert Caruana
02-07-2013, 11:18 AM
This is just my opinion but when people post long replies anonymously, all I see is...blah...blah...blah...blah.

If you have feel that strongly about what you have to say, include your name with your comments.

Albert Caruana
02-07-2013, 11:49 AM
I have kids in school. I would like them to participate in sports without concern. I donít want them to face reprisals for what I post.

I am sure they would be ostracized by all the students that visit this board. Oh wait.

Rich Gonzalez
02-07-2013, 12:03 PM
I am sure they would be ostracized by all the students that visit this board. Oh wait.

Based on the questions/comments kids ask/state at meets, they are hitting the boards, but don't post or sometimes comment on their facebook.

rnrdad
02-07-2013, 12:27 PM
Most organizations are lead and\or controlled by a relatively small number or people. Most of the time those people are very good people with very good intentions.

Self preservation is a basic human characteristic. when the organization, or it's leaders think they are being criticized or attacked, the first reaction is usually defensive and it\they attack.

CIF, PrepCal Track, and Dyestat are no exception.

Note the angry prior posts reacting to opinions that differ from the established rules. Note the repeated guarantees that no one, or any school, or CIF was being attacked - just trying to post opinions and discussion.

I too am a parent. My wife is angry that I might be subjecting my kids to reprisals. Not from the students, but the powers that be in CIF and the the "establishment" because I am dumb enough to post my opinion.

Why do you need to know names? What does a name have to do with the idea presented? What do you want to do with the name once you have it?

AGAIN, you are not being personally attacked becasue someone has an idea different than yours. CIF is a very good group doing great work, and the members of CIF are awesome people that put in a lot of time and hardwork. Most of the coaches are equally awesome, and the schools are too.

Does that mean that there can't be some improvement, particularly as this world is getting smaller and evolving quickly? Information is everywhere, and the message can't be contained as well?

I may be dumb enough to post my opinion, but not dumb enough to identify myself since I am not one of the insiders.

Hal Harkness
02-07-2013, 12:29 PM
It think its time to let this tread die as it appears well past the exchange of ideas and opinions. Politely, we agree to disagree.

rnrdad
02-07-2013, 04:27 PM
Maybe Hal's right. Maybe this "snarkiness" of the OP needs to evolve a bit. So perhaps we should consider a little more enlightened approach.

What if we talk about recruiting and whether there are ways to improve the system. Let's consider both recruiting and undue influence in the context of whether it could be ok.

How should schools and coaches message how good they are? Should they have websites? Open houses? Can they give out literature to middle-schoolers?

Should there be any restrictions on what they can say, or how they can say it?

Transfer versus recruiting.

I understand the difference, and understand that recruiting is illegal and therfore cheating. I am against cheating.

I think the distinction is important, but has lost a lot meaning in todays world.

I think, as Three Trees described that there are many ways a parent and kid can decide where they want to go to school, within limits. CIF says one transfer for athletics, wait 30 days. Then there are all the other ways and schools to choose from.

The easiest is academic transfer if the school lets you in if you want to stay in the public school system. No one is being asked to admit it, but I think there are a whole lot of academic transfers that also consider the sports program but know better than to say so.

Some privates are as good as some publics, but there are a lot of privates that don't fit the bill, either.

I do not believe that allowing sports transfers like academic tranfers will result in mass migrations because one, they are already occurring under both scenarios described above, and two, there aren't that many of the total population that will be added to this group.

Recruiting? If everyone knows you have a top academic program and a top athletic program, public or private, they are already transferring in!!!!!!! By letting the world know about your school is that recruiting? As has been pointed otu, those parents and kids that are active in sports in middle school already know, as do the musicians, debaters, braniacs, etc.

Yes there may be some coaches trolling the middle schools, and hobnobbing with some club coaches, but having spent the last 12 years in middle school and club races, I am telling you I haven't seen very many. I never had a high school coach come around at a meet, or any other time, solicitng kids. It was parents talking to each other, looking at websites, asking their coach, asking other coaches, and other media to try and find out the truth about the high schools academic and athletic programs.

Yes, there may be some that don't care about the education, but just the sports, but no one I know. EVERY parent I know or talked to wanted their kid to go to College and graduate. Every parent I know, including the Hasays and Moussa's of the world wanted a College Education. Hopefully so will Ms. Cain.

That is why I suggested track where the athletes went and how they did. Not to attack, but to inform.

As I said earlier, the vast majority of kids in Ivy League schools come from public schools. And not just the privileged ones, but from all acrros the spectrum, all across the nation.

Parents and kids are already making choices.

I agree that we can still discuss this and there may be a way to come to compromise and consensus because it is already happening.

If no recruiting, be strict. No half true or fake academic transfers, either.

If we can figure out how to allow some true and accurate way of giving parents information about the schools they are considering, MAYBE some recruting might be OK. I don't know.

Finally, let people know how the kids do when they leave high school. Not all of them will be Olympians and Bill Gates combined, but what did most of them accomplish? THAT IS WHAT MOST PARENTS WANT TO KNOW. At least the ones that we are talking about. The ones making choices.

If we can't have a civil discussion about this then by all means shut this thread down. If we can, maybe we can accomplish something, if only thinking about it with an open mind. The kids might benefit.

rnrdad
02-08-2013, 06:56 AM
mrdad,

So, I’m not sure I necessarily see the disagreement. The question is, where are the grey area. What does "undue influence" really mean? Seems like a coach should be fired for "undue influence", but only the Ryan kid was penalized in that case. How can that happen, and does anyone even know what activities are "bad"?

And this is where my confusion is. This is what needs to be fleshed out taking into account the modern world and being honest about it.

I completely agree with each of the questions you posed and answered with "No". To me these are legitimate questions parents, and kids, ask and should ask when choosing a high school. Quite often, the answer is the school in their own backyard.

Not attacking or accusing, but some of the posters denouncing the evils of free choice and clubs, have exactly the kind of school parents and kids want (regardless of economics). That is both academic and sports powerhouses and I strongly suspect they already have parents and kids who exercised choice by transferring in.

I think you are saying, Three Trees, that we should have an open discussion about what undue influence REALLY is so that we can help CIF in their investigation into undue influence and therefore take real steps to stop it, if possible. I also think you are saying that exercising choice should not be confused with undue influence and that getting accurate information about the possible schools being considered is not necessarily undue influence but lets look into it. If this is waht you are saying, then, as a parent I agree with you and would like CIF to think about this during their investigation into undue influence.

The only real thing I am adding to this whole discussion is the notion that where the kids go and how they do after High School is of the utmost importance and maybe that info might flush out those who don't do as good a job of educating the kids that are drawn to them for sports through "undue influence".

Again, maybe I know the wrong people, but most parents I know want a College\University degree for their kids, and so do the kids. We would all love a State Championship, but we know that our kid just might not be the best athlete to ever come from California, but we sure want them to be good people and educated, so we try to do our part and also look for the best school we can to help them get there within whatever limitations we have to face. If we are lucky, and persistent, we can sometimes get them into a high school that meets our criteria, local or otherwise.

Keith Chann
02-20-2013, 07:03 AM
We are not talking about a civil lawsuit here, this is about a membership organization setting rules for membership.
The CIF has rules. Some schools/coaches do not want to play by the established rules thus they are breaking the rules. If you don't like the rules, you work to change them, not simply ignore them. One cannot simply speed down the highway at 90 MPH and then complain that you don't like the speed limit when you get a ticket.
Schools and coaches knowingly break the rules, established by the organization that they pay to have a membership in, and thus should be punished by the rules of said organization. Just because one does not like the illegal recruiting or undue influence rules established by the CIF does not mean that a school and/or coach can just ignore them.

And for the record, I am far from the "establishment" or in-crowd or privelaged program. I am simply a coach at a middle-of-the-road, or lower, Division 3 school who believes in following the rules engagement set forth by the governing body who is willing to put his name to any comment that is made.

JStepp
02-20-2013, 07:17 AM
And for the record, I am far from the "establishment" or in-crowd or privelaged program. I am simply a coach at a middle-of-the-road, or lower, Division 3 school who believes in following the rules engagement set forth by the governing body who is willing to put his name to any comment that is made.

PREACH ON!!! Way to Rep the lower D3!:D

Keith Chann
02-20-2013, 09:45 AM
But I'm not naive. I'm a parent. I don't have a vote.

What specifically would you like the rules changed to?

Would you like a completely open enrollment where athletes are free to move around from program to program with no restrictions?

Would you prefer a system allowing 1 transfer per year?

Would you prefer a system allowing a specific number of transfers?

Would you prefer any limits on coaches contacting youth athletes, including middle schoolers, or just free reign in contact and recruiting of potential talent?

Would you prefer to have limits on what private schools can use to induce athletes to attend their schools?

Would you prefer to have home-schooled students included in any school sports that they choose?

I think that the framework of these questions would allow for the opposing viewpoint (yours is contrary to the current status so I call it "opposing" for only that reason) to get started and more crystallized. Until there is a more formal proposal addressing specific rules from the Blue Book, and specific changes being addressed, it is difficult to properly debate the pros and cons. You raise interesting points that should be able to be addressed but need to be more specific in what you want.

Keith Chann
02-20-2013, 12:18 PM
Funniest posts I have read in a while. I actually laughed out loud at some of the stuff regarding me

cush
02-20-2013, 08:02 PM
i will have to politely disagree with my favorite north hollywood husky/ucla bruin and say NO, do not let this thread die! over 6000 views may mean that ideas ARE being exchanged, even if most of those 6000 viewers choose not to respond. as an english teacher, i'm fascinated by the length and general writing skill involved with some of these posts. as a coach i'm impressed with the acumen of my colleagues while discussing a tricky subject. i'm ready to move my kids to great oak--i'd even run with the kids if doug wanted me to, except for those two hour runs...

at foothill, we've seen both sides of the transfer rule, with some kids going other ways, and some kids coming our way. i like the rules they've attempted to enforce, and i definitely like the "spirit" of the rules. while generally an advocate of choice in most aspects of life, athletic endeavors can be muddied by this--as rene put it earlier, there's something to be learned from everyone; or as robert frost put it, sometimes "the only way out is through"; or as i put it to my athletes: good athletes will overcome bad coaching (and many of them are proof)...

but if i can interject a different point altogether, what saddens me most is that people with means can almost always find a way to circumvent the rules (both legally and illegally), while people without means cannot. consequently, we see the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. and so it goes...

cush
02-20-2013, 08:06 PM
...and, as a further point of observation, i think this is the most viewed thread of the prepcaltrack era...

Hal Harkness
02-20-2013, 08:08 PM
My suggestion that the post die was based on the tenor of the discourse, not the ideas exchanged. Fortunately, it has moderated and it keeps on giving.

rnrdad
02-21-2013, 07:17 AM
I honestly thought I was done with this thread. I added my two cents about, as a parent, the CIF should take into account where the kids went and how they did after high school is what mattered most and maybe that should be a part of what CIF looks into when discussing undue influence.

I was really upset by the attacks against Three Trees because he would not identify himself. And yes, they were attacks.
I saw the power elite telling him he was a coward (implied), a troll, a kid (even though an attempt at clever disclaimer by saying "not saying he is") and that his oipinions were not worth considering becasue they did not know who he was. Clearly, in my mind, telling people that unless you are one of the power elite and agree with the power elite, --- shut up.

Since I too am an anonymous parent, I think that applied to me also. Then, control the message by delete and shut down!!!

The last posts by Cush and Harkness have revived my faith in mankind.

I do think people have a real interest in this based on the 6000 plus views. And yes, I do want to believe that everyone, even those that I think attacked Three Trees (and by implication, me) for anonymity is taking differing views into account.

Coaches, whether you want to believe it or not, even if it does not apply to you, parents are fearful of you. You have a tremendous amount of control in our kids lives. Even though we respect and admire you, we are very careful to stay in your good graces for the sake of our kids. Yes, some parents argue with you, etc, but most of us spend a lot of time making sure you don't get mad, if we can help it. And YES, there is a fear that somehow you might get even with our kids for our actions. I sit in the stands with other parents from a lot of different schools. The kids talk to each other from a lot of different schools. We may not tell you, but trust me, these conversations go on all the time.

Again I am not saying any of you are guilty of this, or would ever do any of this, but we have that fear. Even the toughest of us, because it is our kids!!!!!

That is why I post anonymous and will continue to do so. Maybe that is why with 6000 views, only one kid, two anonymous parents, and a handful of you are posting.

There have been some specific ideas posted. Some good, some not so good. Everyone agrees that cheating should not be tolerated. Maybe we can start finding some middle ground.

Please at least think about the idea, and not only the messenger.

Thank you Cush and Hal, and Chann for some of your earlier posts. Soles you had some good ones, too. Rene, I think you had the best one.

And Three Trees, from one anonymous parent to another, even though some of your snarkiness was a little out of line (as my own) thank you for your bravery and ideas.

rnrdad
02-21-2013, 10:28 AM
Possible middle ground for discussion:

Athletic transfer twice in four years, 30 day sit out period. Applies to all sports and all schools public or private, homeschooled, etc.. From incoming freshmen to senior year. Addresses the "made a mistake the first time" and the transferring for every sport scenario. Gives at least a two year stability. If transfers in as freshman, then again as sophomore, they have used their athletic transfers. Any transfer beyond the two, sit out a year, all sports.

Academic transfers the same applies. In other words, a kid transfers schools for academic purposes, they cannot be on any sport team for 30 days, twice in four years. This 30 days is served once per year. Example: Kid transfers in August 30. No sports until after September 30.

Must sit out year from all sports, from time of transfer, under either academic or sport, beginning with 3rd transfer.

If Family actually moves, then the above do not apply, and the kid can be in sports. Come on, if the whole family moves it is either legitimate, or they are going to do it come what may.

Schools can send out fliers, send reps to middle school "high school night" and hand out school stuff valued at under $5.00 per item, post accomlpishments on websites.

Private schools can offer financial assistance consistent with their financial assistance guidelines for all students, but not at 100% just for sports. Public is free. Even with financial assistance, many families will still say not paying for private.

High School coaches can coach club. They already do. If they are willing to do the extra work, and the kids benefit, what is wrong with that? It is my opinion that the high school coaches that do this have accepted that clubs will exist and they are benefitting their kids. Not to say that those who don't are bad or lazy. If the coach just can't, maybe a parent can?

High Schools can sponsor, or allow, club, or CYO, meets for middle schoolers on their campus outside of CIF sport season. I think this is already allowed as community involvement?

Not intended to be the end all of the discussion, just a start.

Your thoughts?

rnrdad
02-21-2013, 11:01 AM
For purposes of credibility, if a high school coach also wants to coach a club team, they should be required to register and follow the rules of either USATF or AAU. Both of these oprganizations go to great lengths to avoid conlict with CIF, are very legitimate, have coaching requirements, put on most of the club meets, including regional and national championships outside of CIF seasons, and are not tainted by the "money" of Nike, Footlocker, etc.

rnrdad
02-22-2013, 09:16 AM
Three Trees, I am disappointed in your response. I do not care who is wittier or smarter.

Earlier you posted some specific ideas in some of the questions you asked and answered. The other posters expressed that they were interested in the exchange of ideas.

I looked at all of that and really tried to come up with a middle ground to begin discussion about undue influence since CIF says they are going to look into it. Maybe someone noticed that I did not include my pet issue - Graduating from college as a basis to look at and eliminate\reduce undue influence - since everyone seemed to ignore it. That was fine, I am not hurt or upset.

So, are we going to discuss this undue influence issue and try to get some consensus\compromise\ fact based opinions etc to give CIF and the people involved food for thought or is this really just a bunch of posturing?

I beg everyone, please check personalities at the door. Everyone says "its for the kids".

rnrdad
02-22-2013, 10:42 AM
I will accept that I misunderstood your post. I will hear and receive your opinion and position as outlined in your last two posts. I don't think you will be offended if I say I think you staked out your position much better in the last two posts, and people can agree or disagree, right?

AND, maybe we will see if people want to truly discuss ideas and opinions by offering thoughts, or are the minds already made up and maybe you are right, at least to some degree.

rnrdad
02-22-2013, 11:24 AM
See my post in the where are they going thread.
Since I am not a saint, I decided to exercise my right to be snarky, too.

lbxcart
02-23-2013, 09:18 PM
coaches/parents/supporters

this has been a fun thread to read... interesting seeing peoples opinions on the matter. For me it was fun since i teach at a private school and coach at a public school.