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fit2run
04-28-2013, 09:42 PM
Is there a new rule for unattached HS athletes? Cain has been setting new HS National records as an unattached athlete, running against pros, but in 2011, Lukas Verzbicas' 2 mile 8:29.46 was not allowed as a HS record. My understanding was it was that it not performed in a "High School Competition" and he was running against pros. However, according to the internet, he has the national record again. Did they give it back to him?

I find this new phase of running unattached in HS an interesting topic and wonder how many will follow this path. I see the top Arcadia boys are running under O'Brien's Army, instead of their HS track team. I've heard some other HS runners are considering leaving their HS teams as well.

lbxcart
04-28-2013, 10:03 PM
Okay there are two answers to your question.

Yes those individuals set the High School record for their event
-But-
No they don't own the "High School Record"

I know Hal Harkness and Bob McGuire could shed some light on this... but I will give you my best shot:

High School Records- Could be set by High School Athlete during the time they were enrolled in high school in any meet. this includes: high school events, 'open' (unattached) events, U.S. Track & Field Nationals (aka the Olympic qualifying), etc.

High School Federation Records- Could be set by a High School Athlete during a High school ONLY meet during the time they were enrolled in High School

so if I got it right... a athlete can own the High School Record (best mark by a high school any time, any where), BUT NOT the High School Federation record if that record was set in OPEN competition. A lower mark could be the H.S. Federation Record if that mark was set during a High School only event.

So Basically its possible that two individuals own the 'High School Record' to the same event... kind of

Hal Harkness
04-29-2013, 09:25 AM
Mary is setting Track and Field News Records, not official Nstional Federation Records that can only be set in sanctioned, high school only competition. These should be titled "High School Bests Not records as they are made in open competition against competition much superior to high school only. Don't get me started on this one!

Albert Caruana
04-29-2013, 11:10 AM
Mary is setting Track and Field News Records, not official Nstional Federation Records that can only be set in sanctioned, high school only competition. These should be titled "High School Bests Not records as they are made in open competition against competition much superior to high school only. Don't get me started on this one!

I think it would be helpful to hear your thoughts on this Hal. Do you think Alan Webb's time from the Pre Classic should be the HS record mark? The National Federation acknowledges him as the record holder but it doesn't acknowledge his 3:53.43.

Rich Gonzalez
04-29-2013, 12:10 PM
I think it would be helpful to hear your thoughts on this Hal. Do you think Alan Webb's time from the Pre Classic should be the HS record mark? The National Federation acknowledges him as the record holder but it doesn't acknowledge his 3:53.43.

It acknowledges his as the record holder because his 3:59.51 en route was in an all-HS race

Hal Harkness
04-29-2013, 12:19 PM
As much as I've loved Track and Field News since I first subscribed in 1956, I'm totally against their arrogant policy of determining their own high school records, which interestingly is in direct opposition to their policy for collegiate records. T&F News recognizes any mark achieved in any level of competition through the end of summer their record lists.

For collegiate records, they have two lists. One for college only competition and the other for any level. Why would this be so difficult for high school marks. Those marks made in open (USATF or IAAF) meets should be designated as "High School Bests", not records.

Take nothing away from those who rose to the highest level in open competition, but in most cases they were pulled along as the result being in competition with older, more experienced athletes.

In my opinion, the only legitimate high school records are those made against your peers in high school only competition.

hanklaw
04-30-2013, 03:33 PM
In my opinion, the only legitimate high school records are those made against your peers in high school only competition.

So what about JO's, Age Group All-Comer meets, etc where you are running against your peers but it's not a HS Sanctioned event, would marks achieved in those meets count? I'm not sure exactly where you draw the line so I thought I'd ask.

hank

Hal Harkness
04-30-2013, 04:49 PM
The JO's, etc. are age records, i.e. 10 year old, 16 year old, not high school records. These are perfectly legitimate records and many are recognized by USATF. For Track and Field News to arbitrarily decide what high school records are is unacceptable. High School records are for competition between high school students in high school only competition.

There are even class records, freshman, etc. that are not considered official high school records. Only real governing bodies, NFHS, USATF (American Records) and IAAF (World Records) have the stature to recognize records for their constituents.

Track and Field News should classify their high school age marks as "High School Bests".

fit2run
04-30-2013, 09:35 PM
Thanks for clearing this up. I m sure we will run into this more in the future and it will be interesting to see if/how big of a gap there will be from a "true" HS record and HS bests.

yesstiles
05-02-2013, 03:12 AM
In my experience, I think people care about what the fastest times run by a high school athlete are, not what the fastest times are within a certain ruling parameter. I remember as a teenager thinking the fastest 2-mile ever run by a high-schooler was Pre's 8:41. When I found out that it was actually 8:36 (run by Jeff Nelson at the Pepsi invite) I was pretty pissed that that info had been kept from me by some sanctioning committee who said it didn't fit their guideline for a record. Remember the old days when Jim Ryun's World Record in the 880 wasn't recognized for almost a year because the AAU refused to submit it to the IAAF? I just want to know who ran fastest and what the mark was. I've sat in many championship meets overhearing people looking at the "HS Record" written in the program (such as Joetta Clark's 2:04) and hearing them remark at the amazing time. When I'd lean over and say that Kim Gallagher actually ran 2:00.08 in HS, their eyes would grow big in astonishment.

At the risk of sounding hypocritical, I must add though that I hesitate to recognize Verzbicas and Cheserek's recent HS 2-mile records because both were 19 years old. 19 is not a high school age, it is a college age. Heck, I didn't turn 19 until my sophomore year of college.

Hal Harkness
05-02-2013, 05:35 AM
That's why non-high school competition should be labeled as high school bests. Most of these incredible marks could never be attained in high school only competition. What do you think Pre would have done in "Pepsi Meet" type of competition? He ran that time by himself while Nelson (take nothing away from him) was towed well back in the pack (I was there) to his 8:36. That's are high school best at that time.

rnrdad
05-02-2013, 07:56 AM
Kind of like the 4 minute mile mark for high schoolers. How many broke it in high school only competition? How often are any high schoolers able to actually run a true mile in competition? Thank goodness for Arcadia. 1600 meters is not a mile, and are the "mile" times conversions? No matter how many people agree on a specific conversion formula, a conversion is an estimate, period. The 1500 meters is way, way short of a mile no matter how many people call it the metric mile.

Albert Caruana
05-02-2013, 08:49 AM
The majority of distance world records including Roger Bannister's sub 4 minute mile have been set with the assistance of rabbits. A high school runner breaking Alan Webb's 3:53.43 in a high school only competition won't happen in our lifetime, if ever.


That's why non-high school competition should be labeled as high school bests. Most of these incredible marks could never be attained in high school only competition. What do you think Pre would have done in "Pepsi Meet" type of competition? He ran that time by himself while Nelson (take nothing away from him) was towed well back in the pack (I was there) to his 8:36. That's are high school best at that time.

Brian Shapiro
05-02-2013, 09:14 AM
Well, a professional rabbit in a pro-race is a little different than a high schooler being pulled along by pro/college runners. A pro rabbit only runs a portion of the race, say 800m to 1000m in a mile, and the rest is up to the record-setter. A high schooler gets pulled through those tough stretches all the way to the finish line. I believe in the purity of high-school only competition. I would love to see some high school rabbits in high school races though.

I've seen it several times in the past few years in the famous Arcadia boys 3200m. The boys all want to break 9:00, but nobody wants to lead, resulting in your classic 4:34-4:11 negative split for the race winner. I would argue that you would get even more boys under 9:00 if you had a designated high school rabbit to lead them through the first 5 or so laps at 4:28 pace. I'm sure some of those Baxter-types wouldn't mind a pony tail to chase for the first few laps.

Albert Caruana
05-02-2013, 10:13 AM
Great idea especially at Arcadia since the object for most athletes is usually to run FAST.


Well, a professional rabbit in a pro-race is a little different than a high schooler being pulled along by pro/college runners. A pro rabbit only runs a portion of the race, say 800m to 1000m in a mile, and the rest is up to the record-setter. A high schooler gets pulled through those tough stretches all the way to the finish line. I believe in the purity of high-school only competition. I would love to see some high school rabbits in high school races though.

I've seen it several times in the past few years in the famous Arcadia boys 3200m. The boys all want to break 9:00, but nobody wants to lead, resulting in your classic 4:34-4:11 negative split for the race winner. I would argue that you would get even more boys under 9:00 if you had a designated high school rabbit to lead them through the first 5 or so laps at 4:28 pace. I'm sure some of those Baxter-types wouldn't mind a pony tail to chase for the first few laps.