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Doug Soles
05-12-2013, 03:13 PM
I truly hope that we are the only team that is suffering from the nightmare of these private "coach" vultures that are circling around our kids once they get good. This year as been tremendously bad for us! Note that these supposed "coaches" are no where to be seen UNTIL the athletes are already superstars and then they approach the kids or parents at meets like Arcadia and tell them that they can make them better. Unfortunately they kill team chemistry, build distrust between hs coaches, athletes, and parents, in my experience always end badly, and most of the time do not even IMPROVE the athletes!!!

To clear up the Nick Ponzio situation, I want to make sure people understand that he is coached by his high school coaches Tyler Wood and Ernie Pepe! His family mistakenly talked to the Arete guy at Arcadia and met with him a couple times. That is it. He doesn't work with, get coached by, or owe any of his improvements to the Arete system or anyone employed there! His high school coaches have developed him, just like they have our other boy thrower that just threw a hair under 58', and our girl thrower who has gone from 32' a month ago to 38' 8" at CIF Prelims. Nick is a great, hard working kid who has busted his butt to become great under the guidance of his coaches. Thank you to Rich for updating the story so that it accurately reflects Nick's improvements.

I received a lot of questions from coaches Saturday about why our relay lineups were different at Prelims and why we didn't qualify. The answer to this is simple, a private coach ruined one of our athletes as a teammate and the rest of the kids suffered for it. It is always sad when the vultures out there care more about being able to say they coach this kid or that kid (and stealing a little money from the parents on top of it) then to let the kids enjoy success together.

Coaches, protect your programs from these guys. They are like an infection and will spread if you let them.

Doug

Rich Gonzalez
05-12-2013, 10:41 PM
Doug,

Are you sure you emailed me?

I dont see anything from you in my inbox.

Rich

trkcoach53
05-13-2013, 10:08 AM
Doug,

You are not the only program infected with 'private coaches', it takes parents with intelligence and integrity to do the right thing! :o)

Rich Gonzalez
05-13-2013, 10:20 AM
For the record, after reading this yesterday and replying I also IMMEDIATELY contacted Doug Soles. He confirmed that he DID NOT email me at all. He did say that he texted me multiple times on Saturday. I re-checked my text logs from Saturday. There were several texts I received through the day on various meets, but none were from him or on this topic.

ThreeTrees
05-13-2013, 10:39 AM
To the Athletes:

Don’t fall for the ridiculously juvenile argument that private coaches are incompetent or they damage team unity. That’s something routinely put forth by insecure coaches (and I use the term “coaches” rather loosely) who feel threatened by someone who knows what they’re doing. Many of the public school "coaches" are nothing more than glorified P.E. teachers, masquerading as coaches with a belief they know something about the sport because they carry a whistle and get paid for their efforts. To suggest that any one of them can coach a 16’0 pole vaulter along with a 4:10 miler and a 7’0 high jumper is preposterous. They’re “coaching” perhaps 200 kids with all levels of ability and desire, and many times it’s simply herding cats.

Choice is essential. It’s your fundamental right to strive to be the best, to work hard and to be rewarded for your efforts. Choice is something to be encouraged. The OP, like so many public school coaches, is simply protecting his castle. A few months back he was arguing for stricter rules for limiting choice because other schools were “stealing his athletes,” as if he owns the kids in his district. Now it’s the so-call “vulture” private coaches stealing his athletes. Note the common theme here. It’s others invading on a public school coach’s territory and taking away his god-given right to destroy a young athletes’ dreams and aspirations.

The public school coaches are simply trying to limit choice and protect their castle. To suggest that the private coaches don’t know what they’re doing is a fallacy. Make no mistake -- there are some really great public school coaches out there. It’s no surprise that we are seeing one of the best classes of distance athletes develop since the mid-70s class of Hulst, Hunt and Serna, and each one was coached by a stellar youth coach and is now being coached by a stellar high school coach. If you’re lucky enough to be near one of these coaches, count yourself fortunate. But don’t limit yourself simply because some coach who doesn't know what he’s doing was given a whistle.

To the Private schools:

It’s time you unburdened yourselves from the albatross we call the public school system. Throw off the yoke of your dysfunctional counterparts. The public school is a failed system that promotes mediocrity, particularly, as we all know, in sports. The public school system has fallen from the ranks of the very best of 50 years ago. It’s now a shadow of its former self, something that so many third world countries can now best.

You have the numbers. Organize. Create an umbrella organization to deal with the CIF. Negotiate as a block for better terms. Establish, if it's not already out there, the Committee for Fairness in Sports. Stop letting the public schools dictate how you get your message out. Stop the madness around recruiting. Rally around Mater Dei and St. Bony. Negotiate on an equal footing with the unions that represent the public schools (and yes, the CIF is nothing more than a public school union). You have the numbers. If need be, you can create an alternative now that is better than the CIF. Congrats goes out to St. Bony for considering moving to an interstate league where choice is no longer limited and athletes are rewarded for their efforts.

Soccer finally did the right thing last year. Football is in a state of flux and getting close. It’s time we did away with a system that does nothing more than protect the public school coaches at the expense of the kids.

To the Public school coaches:

Admit that you don't know everything and shed your insecurities. The argument that kids are damaging team unity is absurd. I grew up during those great 70s classes. I ran with 3 state champions. They had special workouts. We looked up to them. We were happy to be on the same team with us. They were our friends. We had team unity. We went to meets and felt we were all champions, and we aspired to be as good as them. We worked hard to be like them. We admired our coaches because they developed the kids so they could make the jump to the next level, and we admired them because they didn't stand in their way either. You do more harm to yourselves by standing in the way of the athletes that want to be the best and to work hard. Back in the day the coaches didn't lose control of the team because some of the better athletes were different or because they were dedicated. A good coach has no problem managing different levels of ability. Stop holding the kids back because you can't do your job. You are sewing the seeds of your own demise.

Ed Winczowski
05-13-2013, 10:46 AM
To the Athletes:

Don’t fall for the ridiculously juvenile argument that private coaches are incompetent or they damage team unity. That’s something routinely put forth by insecure coaches (and I use the term “coaches” rather loosely) who feel threatened by someone who knows what they’re doing. Many of the public school "coaches" are nothing more than glorified P.E. teachers, masquerading as coaches with a belief they know something about the sport because they carry a whistle and get paid for their efforts. To suggest that any one of them can coach a 16’0 pole vaulter along with a 4:10 miler and a 7’0 high jumper is preposterous. They’re “coaching” perhaps 200 kids with all levels of ability and desire, and many times it’s simply herding cats.

Choice is essential. It’s your fundamental right to strive to be the best, to work hard and to be rewarded for your efforts. Choice is something to be encouraged. The OP, like so many public school coaches, is simply protecting his castle. A few months back he was arguing for stricter rules for limiting choice because other schools were “stealing his athletes,” as if he owns the kids in his district. Now it’s the so-call “vulture” private coaches stealing his athletes. Note the common theme here. It’s others invading on a public school coach’s territory and taking away his god-given right to destroy a young athletes’ dreams and aspirations.

The public school coaches are simply trying to limit choice and protect their castle. To suggest that the private coaches don’t know what they’re doing is a fallacy. Make no mistake -- there are some really great public school coaches out there. It’s no surprise that we are seeing one of the best classes of distance athletes develop since the mid-70s class of Hulst, Hunt and Serna, and each one was coached by a stellar youth coach and is now being coached by a stellar high school coach. If you’re lucky enough to be near one of these coaches, count yourself fortunate. But don’t limit yourself simply because some coach who doesn't know what he’s doing was given a whistle.

To the Private schools:

It’s time you unburdened yourselves from the albatross we call the public school system. Throw off the yoke of your dysfunctional counterparts. The public school is a failed system that promotes mediocrity, particularly, as we all know, in sports. The public school system has fallen from the ranks of the very best of 50 years ago. It’s now a shadow of its former self, something that so many third world countries can now best.

You have the numbers. Organize. Create an umbrella organization to deal with the CIF. Negotiate as a block for better terms. Establish, if it's not already out there, the Committee for Fairness in Sports. Stop letting the public schools dictate how you get your message out. Stop the madness around recruiting. Rally around Mater Dei and St. Bony. Negotiate on an equal footing with the unions that represent the public schools (and yes, the CIF is nothing more than a public school union). You have the numbers. If need be, you can create an alternative now that is better than the CIF. Congrats goes out to St. Bony for considering moving to an interstate league where choice is no longer limited and athletes are rewarded for their efforts.

Soccer finally did the right thing last year. Football is in a state of flux and getting close. It’s time we did away with a system that does nothing more than protect the public school coaches at the expense of the kids.

To the Public school coaches:

Admit that you don't know everything and shed your insecurities. The argument that kids are damaging team unity is absurd. I grew up during those great 70s classes. I ran with 3 state champions. They had special workouts. We looked up to them. We were happy to be on the same team with us. They were our friends. We had team unity. We went to meets and felt we were all champions, and we aspired to be as good as them. We worked hard to be like them. We admired our coaches because they developed the kids so they could make the jump to the next level, and we admired them because they didn't stand in their way either. You do more harm to yourselves by standing in the way of the athletes that want to be the best and to work hard. Back in the day the coaches didn't lose control of the team because some of the better athletes were different or because they were dedicated. A good coach has no problem managing different levels of ability. Stop holding the kids back because you can't do your job. You are sewing the seeds of your own demise.

I thinks it's about time we dusted off Track Dude to reply to this one.

rnrdad
05-13-2013, 11:59 AM
I received a lot of questions from coaches Saturday about why our relay lineups were different at Prelims and why we didn't qualify. The answer to this is simple, a private coach ruined one of our athletes as a teammate and the rest of the kids suffered for it. It is always sad when the vultures out there care more about being able to say they coach this kid or that kid (and stealing a little money from the parents on top of it) then to let the kids enjoy success together.

Coaches, protect your programs from these guys. They are like an infection and will spread if you let them.

Doug


Private coaches, clubs and transfers are just inherently evil. They are the only reason a school program fails to win State or has a bad day.

The only answer is two fold:

Make all private coaches wear signs that say "I am a private coach. I am evil. I will ruin your kid and steal your money."

Prohibit any student from participating in High School Sports if they have ever been part of a sports club, coached by a private coach, or have ever, or may think about transferring schools for any reason - sports or academic. (Including the "impact frosh over the years and the rich families who have their kids getting lessons from private coaches, nutritionists, etc.)

Three Trees, tone it down, man.

Doug, I am truly sorry that these vultures are ruining what is otherwise a very good program that deserves to be state champions. There can be no other reason.

Rich Gonzalez
05-13-2013, 12:10 PM
To the Athletes:

Don’t fall for the ridiculously juvenile argument that private coaches are incompetent or they damage team unity. That’s something routinely put forth by insecure coaches (and I use the term “coaches” rather loosely) who feel threatened by someone who knows what they’re doing. Many of the public school "coaches" are nothing more than glorified P.E. teachers, masquerading as coaches with a belief they know something about the sport because they carry a whistle and get paid for their efforts. To suggest that any one of them can coach a 16’0 pole vaulter along with a 4:10 miler and a 7’0 high jumper is preposterous. They’re “coaching” perhaps 200 kids with all levels of ability and desire, and many times it’s simply herding cats.

Choice is essential. It’s your fundamental right to strive to be the best, to work hard and to be rewarded for your efforts. Choice is something to be encouraged. The OP, like so many public school coaches, is simply protecting his castle. A few months back he was arguing for stricter rules for limiting choice because other schools were “stealing his athletes,” as if he owns the kids in his district. Now it’s the so-call “vulture” private coaches stealing his athletes. Note the common theme here. It’s others invading on a public school coach’s territory and taking away his god-given right to destroy a young athletes’ dreams and aspirations.

The public school coaches are simply trying to limit choice and protect their castle. To suggest that the private coaches don’t know what they’re doing is a fallacy. Make no mistake -- there are some really great public school coaches out there. It’s no surprise that we are seeing one of the best classes of distance athletes develop since the mid-70s class of Hulst, Hunt and Serna, and each one was coached by a stellar youth coach and is now being coached by a stellar high school coach. If you’re lucky enough to be near one of these coaches, count yourself fortunate. But don’t limit yourself simply because some coach who doesn't know what he’s doing was given a whistle.

To the Private schools:

It’s time you unburdened yourselves from the albatross we call the public school system. Throw off the yoke of your dysfunctional counterparts. The public school is a failed system that promotes mediocrity, particularly, as we all know, in sports. The public school system has fallen from the ranks of the very best of 50 years ago. It’s now a shadow of its former self, something that so many third world countries can now best.

You have the numbers. Organize. Create an umbrella organization to deal with the CIF. Negotiate as a block for better terms. Establish, if it's not already out there, the Committee for Fairness in Sports. Stop letting the public schools dictate how you get your message out. Stop the madness around recruiting. Rally around Mater Dei and St. Bony. Negotiate on an equal footing with the unions that represent the public schools (and yes, the CIF is nothing more than a public school union). You have the numbers. If need be, you can create an alternative now that is better than the CIF. Congrats goes out to St. Bony for considering moving to an interstate league where choice is no longer limited and athletes are rewarded for their efforts.

Soccer finally did the right thing last year. Football is in a state of flux and getting close. It’s time we did away with a system that does nothing more than protect the public school coaches at the expense of the kids.

To the Public school coaches:

Admit that you don't know everything and shed your insecurities. The argument that kids are damaging team unity is absurd. I grew up during those great 70s classes. I ran with 3 state champions. They had special workouts. We looked up to them. We were happy to be on the same team with us. They were our friends. We had team unity. We went to meets and felt we were all champions, and we aspired to be as good as them. We worked hard to be like them. We admired our coaches because they developed the kids so they could make the jump to the next level, and we admired them because they didn't stand in their way either. You do more harm to yourselves by standing in the way of the athletes that want to be the best and to work hard. Back in the day the coaches didn't lose control of the team because some of the better athletes were different or because they were dedicated. A good coach has no problem managing different levels of ability. Stop holding the kids back because you can't do your job. You are sewing the seeds of your own demise.

An excellent read. Although I don't agree with some of your lesser points (about one coach doing all the coaching for 200 kids -- a few coaches actually have close to 10 on their staff. I believe one has 14), most of it was of great service to all.

Rich Gonzalez
05-13-2013, 12:11 PM
Private coaches, clubs and transfers are just inherently evil. They are the only reason a school program fails to win State or has a bad day.

The only answer is two fold:

Make all private coaches wear signs that say "I am a private coach. I am evil. I will ruin your kid and steal your money."

Prohibit any student from participating in High School Sports if they have ever been part of a sports club, coached by a private coach, or have ever, or may think about transferring schools for any reason - sports or academic. (Including the "impact frosh over the years and the rich families who have their kids getting lessons from private coaches, nutritionists, etc.)

Three Trees, tone it down, man.

Doug, I am truly sorry that these vultures are ruining what is otherwise a very good program that deserves to be state champions. There can be no other reason.

rnrdad, this one had me laughing pretty good. :) Fun stuff.

seekingadvice
05-13-2013, 01:52 PM
So what choice do athletes have if their local high school coach really isn't good or doesn't even know how to organize a practice let alone develop talent? I have heard from others "the kid could become a leader and make his/her team want to be better". Really? I also heard "they can always transfer". Like every family has a choice of schools and access to transportation to these schools. I also heard "tell the AD and they should get it fixed" . What if that doesn't work?

There does have to be a way for talented kids to have access to at least the same races, especially invitationals.

Tony DiMarco
05-13-2013, 02:42 PM
To the Athletes:

Don’t fall for the ridiculously juvenile argument that private coaches are incompetent or they damage team unity. That’s something routinely put forth by insecure coaches (and I use the term “coaches” rather loosely) who feel threatened by someone who knows what they’re doing. Many of the public school "coaches" are nothing more than glorified P.E. teachers, masquerading as coaches with a belief they know something about the sport because they carry a whistle and get paid for their efforts. To suggest that any one of them can coach a 16’0 pole vaulter along with a 4:10 miler and a 7’0 high jumper is preposterous. They’re “coaching” perhaps 200 kids with all levels of ability and desire, and many times it’s simply herding cats.

Choice is essential. It’s your fundamental right to strive to be the best, to work hard and to be rewarded for your efforts. Choice is something to be encouraged. The OP, like so many public school coaches, is simply protecting his castle. A few months back he was arguing for stricter rules for limiting choice because other schools were “stealing his athletes,” as if he owns the kids in his district. Now it’s the so-call “vulture” private coaches stealing his athletes. Note the common theme here. It’s others invading on a public school coach’s territory and taking away his god-given right to destroy a young athletes’ dreams and aspirations.

The public school coaches are simply trying to limit choice and protect their castle. To suggest that the private coaches don’t know what they’re doing is a fallacy. Make no mistake -- there are some really great public school coaches out there. It’s no surprise that we are seeing one of the best classes of distance athletes develop since the mid-70s class of Hulst, Hunt and Serna, and each one was coached by a stellar youth coach and is now being coached by a stellar high school coach. If you’re lucky enough to be near one of these coaches, count yourself fortunate. But don’t limit yourself simply because some coach who doesn't know what he’s doing was given a whistle.

To the Private schools:

It’s time you unburdened yourselves from the albatross we call the public school system. Throw off the yoke of your dysfunctional counterparts. The public school is a failed system that promotes mediocrity, particularly, as we all know, in sports. The public school system has fallen from the ranks of the very best of 50 years ago. It’s now a shadow of its former self, something that so many third world countries can now best.

You have the numbers. Organize. Create an umbrella organization to deal with the CIF. Negotiate as a block for better terms. Establish, if it's not already out there, the Committee for Fairness in Sports. Stop letting the public schools dictate how you get your message out. Stop the madness around recruiting. Rally around Mater Dei and St. Bony. Negotiate on an equal footing with the unions that represent the public schools (and yes, the CIF is nothing more than a public school union). You have the numbers. If need be, you can create an alternative now that is better than the CIF. Congrats goes out to St. Bony for considering moving to an interstate league where choice is no longer limited and athletes are rewarded for their efforts.

Soccer finally did the right thing last year. Football is in a state of flux and getting close. It’s time we did away with a system that does nothing more than protect the public school coaches at the expense of the kids.

To the Public school coaches:

Admit that you don't know everything and shed your insecurities. The argument that kids are damaging team unity is absurd. I grew up during those great 70s classes. I ran with 3 state champions. They had special workouts. We looked up to them. We were happy to be on the same team with us. They were our friends. We had team unity. We went to meets and felt we were all champions, and we aspired to be as good as them. We worked hard to be like them. We admired our coaches because they developed the kids so they could make the jump to the next level, and we admired them because they didn't stand in their way either. You do more harm to yourselves by standing in the way of the athletes that want to be the best and to work hard. Back in the day the coaches didn't lose control of the team because some of the better athletes were different or because they were dedicated. A good coach has no problem managing different levels of ability. Stop holding the kids back because you can't do your job. You are sewing the seeds of your own demise.

Is that you Mr. Zelinski? Man it's been a long time... well if it’s not, you sure do sound like him... (Before you get all bent out of shape, I don’t care who you are, that’s called a joke! Joseph Zelinski back in the day made the same arguments you are making and we had soooo many wonderful conversations back and forth before my wife made me stop commenting on the site – don’t worry, for now she doesn’t know I’m back shhhh!)

Sorry I couldn't force myself to read your entire rant but I think you should apologize (again) for the comments about high school coaches. Really, you’re suggesting that someone who is a "private coach" is better than a high school "PE teacher with a whistle"? Could you prove that for me? What makes them a better coach? They don't work for the public school system so that automatically makes them a better coach? I'm sorry I am really trying to be more open-minded but your comments were low even for you.

The public school system in my opinion (and yes I can back it up with hard data) has some if not most of the top coaches of any level in the United States. I can't tell you how many college coaches could learn a few things from them! To say that they can't coach
16’0 pole vaulter along with a 4:10 miler and a 7’0 high jumper. is preposterous! When I was a head track coach I coached milers, hurdlers, sprinters to CIF Finals... what makes you think "we" lack the skills to coach athletes to the next level in various events? Most of my college coaches either didn't compete in track or XC or were not distance runners but they coached our distance program...

In my humble opinion the greatest throws coach in the state (if not the nation) is Tony Ciarelli who I was honored to have coached with for many years. A long time teacher and "public school coach" who if you know anything about throws (and I learned everything I know from watching him) is the best of the best. What could a "private coach" teach his athletes? The real question is what a “private coach” could have screwed up in his athletes!

Look I'm not saying private coaches are evil (sorry Doug), but I think there is a place and time for them. It starts with an agreement between all three parties (high school coach, athlete and private coach) and it ends with doing what is right for the athlete, team and philosophy of the high school program (IF that athlete wishes to be on that team!) If that athlete wants to be on that high school team then they have to follow the rules like everyone else or the wrong message is being sent!

I think the problem is the fact that you and “private coaches” think that we stink at what we do and you are the answer to their problems… NO high school coach ever walks up to a “privately coached athlete" and tells them that they will be better if they work with us…” Why? Because we coach who walks through our door (we… well most of us don’t recruit), we then expect (rightfully so) that the athlete follow the rules of the program. It’s that simple… What makes this not simple is the person who says "why do you have to follow those rules" Why… Because that’s what makes a team a team!

Rick Martinez
05-13-2013, 03:22 PM
Doug,

I agree with you 100% and this will be a tough battle considering the current culture with parents. You cannot control what parents do. They always want what is best for their athlete. At the beginning of the season we try to communicate our concerns and risks involved when you go to a private coach especially during the season. Parents often think more is better and we have seen injuries, damage to team chemistry, and a lack of peaking at the end of the season as a result. Private coaches are an unfortunate trend now so the best thing to do is establish a good trusting relationship with your athletes and their parents. There are too many good programs out there. Parents and talented athletes always have a choice. They certainly make it look easy when they choose a school for football or basketball.

Keith Chann
05-13-2013, 03:38 PM
If you want to be on the high school team then you have the high school coaches. If the high school coach realizes that a private coach would better serve his/her athlete in that case then an arrangement should be made among all interested parties.
THe athlete, and their parent, always has the rout of running in the club scene.
If you are on the team for that school then you have the coach for that school.


Is that you Mr. Zelinski?
Thanks for bringing back the memories Tony! I feel old just typing that!

RichEde
05-13-2013, 08:49 PM
Over 43 years of coaching, I've seen great results with outside-of-school-program coaches, and I've seen horrible results. The good ones have come when the outside coach works with the school program to avoid injury and keep the athlete integrated into the school program.

Unfortunately, there's one local group that has convinced several parents to pay their fees over the past 5-6 years which falls into the latter category. Without exception, every athlete of ours who has worked with them (to the exclusion of the school program) has wound up injured and unable to compete for at least a portion of the season. Yet, simply because the parents have to pay them, they convince the parents that the MUST be better than the school staff who don't charge parents anything. Maybe it's time school coaches who DO know something start blowing their own horns.

Rick Reaser
05-13-2013, 08:50 PM
If it wasn't for Private Coaching and their Winter and Summer Track Club, my girls would not be competing at the NCAA DI level today--pure and simple. The best part of their college experience is being on the Track (and Cross Country) teams. Being on the team is a full time job in addition to being a student--which is also a full time job. One of them would not be a two-time NCAA All American or gone to the Olympic Trials as a 19 year old, if it hadn't have been for her private and club coaches--not the High School T&F/XC coaches. Fortunately, we were able to work out the private coach and off-season Track Club thing with the High School, but it was sure ugly for four long years. The vast majority of girls who compete with my girls today in the NCAA today are "Track Club Girls" who had private coaching. Some ran "unattached" in the USATF and AAU JO's since they were coached by their parents. I will make a list at some point. It's like a JO reunion of Track Club girls at the NCAAs every year. Now, I had a great HS coach in the '70's and went to a parochial HS in LA. We were CIF-SS 1A Champs, twice. Our coach taught Chip Benson the TJ when that was added as a HS event and got Chip into UCLA where he is still is on the Top Ten List. He was my History Teacher and knew every event--shot put to pole vault--and took us to the Mt. SAC clinics over the summer. We went to the Watts Summer Games. We ran indoor at the Times and Sunkist Invitationals--during basketball and soccer season, no less. He's 80 and I still keep in touch with him. He follows my girls and even remembers my HS marks and events. Looking around, those kind of HS coaches are few a far between these days. They do exist, though. I won't put every HS coach in the same box, if you don't put every private or club coach in the same box. <grin>

Rick Reaser
05-14-2013, 07:28 AM
Just wanted to react to Three Trees statement, "(and yes, the CIF is nothing more than a public school union)." I ran this statement by John Spalding, here on PrepCalTrack, in the preface to "California State Meet Results - 1915 to present."

"High school athletes have been competing against one another in the nine counties of the San Francisco Bay Area since the late 19th Century. Football was governed in 1891 by the Amateur Academic Athletic Association. Other games and meets were arranged in a haphazard manner until 1894, when competition around the bay was provided by the Academic Athletic League.

The AAL provided structured competition for boys in football, baseball, swimming, tennis and track and field. Basketball was added early in the 20th Century. A few schools offered less formal interscholastic competition for girls in baseball, basketball, swimming, tennis and volleyball.

Teams represented schools, but were not under the direct control of principals, superintendents or elected school officials. There were frequent disagreements over eligibility, rules and finances.

In 1912, James E. Rogers of San Francisco Lowell High School spoke for many, saying the AAL, “has become a mere shadow of the guiding spirit of high school athletics it represented a few years ago.” Athletics should be recognized as part of school duties, he added, and the board of education should oversee physical instruction and appoint someone to run the program.

Other educators agreed and in July, 1913, a California School Teachers Association committee recommended school officials adopt policies to control interscholastic athletics, which effectively meant boys’ sports. After a series of meetings, the California Interscholastic Federation was formed in March, 1914. Its main purpose was to put the direction of high school athletics in the hands of educators."

Here the link to the whole document on PrepCalTrack: http://www.prepcaltrack.com/ATHLETICS/TRACK/stateres.htm

CIF was the brainchild of the CSTA, which was the teachers union. CIF (and NHFS) is run much like a union today. Every aspect is controlled, including interaction with "non-union members." NCAA is not much different, but at least it doesn't control interactions with non-NCAA members or events as much.

Sam Collins
05-14-2013, 07:52 AM
Any private coach that is of value would not interfere with the athlete during the season without closely working with the school coach. And even then only supplementing some specific skills such starts, hurdle drills etc. and even then it is tenuous due to the potential issue of overtraining, particularly the common overuse injuries by these young athletes.

Most private coaches taut their great backgrounds yet when you truly look into them they are dubious at best. They indicate their great past athletic feats etc. Track and field is a fraternity that most of us who are now coaching and have had success in the collegiate, USA National, or Olympic levels (trials or games) are well known to each other. Yet most of these private experts most of us have never heard of.

If they are so good at coaching why are they not coaching somewhere? Who have they developed? I note many simply cherry pick athletes who already are performing and latch onto that success as if they were responsible for it. I would love to see them take everyone who shows up and develop from that group as opposed to those already identified. They may not coach at a school as they would indicate it does not pay enough etc. And to me that is a problem as they are making a career of taking money from well-meaning parents who think their magic formula is what will make the difference and lead to the college of their dreams for their child. Therefore they justify their not coaching at a school as the money. However my issue would be if they were truly coaching as profession they would seek such a job. UCLA has an opening by the way it just went on line yesterday.

Oh yeah I forgot it requires a 4 year degree minimum and coaching experience beyond a few athletes privately.

Particularly in OC there are a number of families who have a fair amount of means that are primed to these coaches’ advances with their promise of stardom and CIF championships. Yet in my 17 years of experience I have not seen a marked difference in better performances under these private coaches then the school program. My observation has noted overtraining, injury, and lack of team unity and generally the demise of the athlete at the end of the year.

If a kid wants to do extra work with a private coach in the off season so be it, but there should be no contact during season albeit nothing beyond some verbal encouragement. Not all programs or school coaches have the time to do a full year program and in those instances private training can benefit the athlete. At Mater Dei we are very fortunate to have a stable of coaches that all have collegiate and beyond experience and there are virtually no private coaches who can report superior credentials, making it is hard for a private coach to indicate we are lesser than what they offer.

But believe me they are out there trying to get into the kids and parents ears with their promises. It is especially bad when I hear these coaches have bashed the school coaches as I ascribe to the adage there is no need to attempt to bring yourself up by putting and pushing others down. When that is the case I am not sure your credential is what you think it is, nor stands on its own.

Rich Gonzalez
05-14-2013, 10:16 AM
Excellent thread. Keep those great points coming!

Doug Soles
05-14-2013, 10:45 AM
Any private coach that is of value would not interfere with the athlete during the season without closely working with the school coach. And even then only supplementing some specific skills such starts, hurdle drills etc. and even then it is tenuous due to the potential issue of overtraining, particularly the common overuse injuries by these young athletes.

Most private coaches taut their great backgrounds yet when you truly look into them they are dubious at best. They indicate their great past athletic feats etc. Track and field is a fraternity that most of us who are now coaching and have had success in the collegiate, USA National, or Olympic levels (trials or games) are well known to each other. Yet most of these private experts most of us have never heard of.

If they are so good at coaching why are they not coaching somewhere? Who have they developed? I note many simply cherry pick athletes who already are performing and latch onto that success as if they were responsible for it. I would love to see them take everyone who shows up and develop from that group as opposed to those already identified. They may not coach at a school as they would indicate it does not pay enough etc. And to me that is a problem as they are making a career of taking money from well-meaning parents who think their magic formula is what will make the difference and lead to the college of their dreams for their child. Therefore they justify their not coaching at a school as the money. However my issue would be if they were truly coaching as profession they would seek such a job. UCLA has an opening by the way it just went on line yesterday.

Oh yeah I forgot it requires a 4 year degree minimum and coaching experience beyond a few athletes privately.

Particularly in OC there are a number of families who have a fair amount of means that are primed to these coaches’ advances with their promise of stardom and CIF championships. Yet in my 17 years of experience I have not seen a marked difference in better performances under these private coaches then the school program. My observation has noted overtraining, injury, and lack of team unity and generally the demise of the athlete at the end of the year.

If a kid wants to do extra work with a private coach in the off season so be it, but there should be no contact during season albeit nothing beyond some verbal encouragement. Not all programs or school coaches have the time to do a full year program and in those instances private training can benefit the athlete. At Mater Dei we are very fortunate to have a stable of coaches that all have collegiate and beyond experience and there are virtually no private coaches who can report superior credentials, making it is hard for a private coach to indicate we are lesser than what they offer.

But believe me they are out there trying to get into the kids and parents ears with their promises. It is especially bad when I hear these coaches have bashed the school coaches as I ascribe to the adage there is no need to attempt to bring yourself up by putting and pushing others down. When that is the case I am not sure your credential is what you think it is, nor stands on its own.

Very well written Sam! :)

In my history as a head coach (14 years), I've run into some good private coaches that were in it for the kids and not the money or the credit for the athlete's success. I hired them and let them help all of our kids. :)

Truthfully, I have to agree with Sam Collins that what I have observed is that most of them are in it for themselves either credit wise or just for the money. I have yet to have anyone try to poach my 11.4 or 13.5 hundred meter types. You want to impress me, turn those kids into CIF Finalists! If you coach throws and are an amazing coach, find a program that needs a coach and prove it. Don't go to Arcadia and approach the top throwers in the state and try to take credit for them!

We even have a guy that goes to all of our meets and tells people he coaches our hurdlers just to take credit for their success! Haha, how crazy is that?!?!

Doug

RichEde
05-14-2013, 11:12 AM
@Sam Collins. Perfect.

Keith Chann
05-14-2013, 12:03 PM
It is amazing how only the top programs that are already developing good talent have to worry about the private coaches. I have yet to see a private coach chasing down one of my athletes or parents. If anyone needs a better private coach it is certainly one of my kids. I guess Rubidoux is not on the map for these coaches. I could certainly use the help in getting my athletes faster! Doesn't anyone want a 23.6/55.4 sophomore boy to develop into a Masters qualifier? How about a 4:35/9:47 soph boy? Anyone, anyone?

Torres BHDP
05-14-2013, 12:42 PM
It is amazing how only the top programs that are already developing good talent have to worry about the private coaches. I have yet to see a private coach chasing down one of my athletes or parents. If anyone needs a better private coach it is certainly one of my kids. I guess Rubidoux is not on the map for these coaches. I could certainly use the help in getting my athletes faster! Doesn't anyone want a 23.6/55.4 sophomore boy to develop into a Masters qualifier? How about a 4:35/9:47 soph boy? Anyone, anyone?

I tip my hat to you, sir, you took the thoughts right out of my head... This is all i kept thinking (regarding my own program) while reading these posts... But it would have to be on a volunteer basis cuz my boys' families can barely pay tuition let alone a private coach! And you would have to pick them up, drop them off, rent your own facility (cuz we have none), convince the parents that this matters (as opposed to a job that brings money INTO the family, in Spanish), etc... etc... etc... There's gotta be another Antonio Jimenez in there somewhere, right?

Sam Collins
05-14-2013, 01:18 PM
It is amazing how only the top programs that are already developing good talent have to worry about the private coaches. I have yet to see a private coach chasing down one of my athletes or parents. If anyone needs a better private coach it is certainly one of my kids. I guess Rubidoux is not on the map for these coaches. I could certainly use the help in getting my athletes faster! Doesn't anyone want a 23.6/55.4 sophomore boy to develop into a Masters qualifier? How about a 4:35/9:47 soph boy? Anyone, anyone?

Keith hit the motherlode :)

cush
05-14-2013, 01:33 PM
first off, i've had some very positive experiences with private coaches in a variety of events, but i'll still second (or third, or fourth) keith's comment.

besides cherry-picking, the other luxury private coaches have is they are in a win-win-win situation: they win when the athlete does well (regardless of who may truly be responsible for the success); they win even when the athlete doesn't do well (clearly it must be the other coach's fault); and they win with every check deposited...

rnrdad
05-14-2013, 01:57 PM
I think this thread is now going in a good direction.

I am an older guy. My grandparents and my parents (I am old enough that they have all been deceased for some time)
drilled into our heads to take responsibility for our own actions, make no excuses, just figure out what we did wrong, then fix it. We were not allowed to blame someone else.

These arguments have been going on for a long time and will go on forever. From my perspective the best responses posted talk about communication and cooperation. But I suppose the righteous can say that is not their responsibility. And, I guess that is hard to do when you have already said in so many words that parents are not very smart and are very gullible. If they had any sense, they would just do exactly what you say, after all.

I get frustrated when elite coaches from elite schools use outside forces to explain away a no championship record setting season or performance. Despite the fact that many of their families have and utilize resources not available to all - tutors, coaches, lessons, nutritionist, summer camps, etc, all to get the best sat scores, performances, college admissions, etc. Yes I know it is not all of them and yes you may have some that cannot afford it, but you have more than most.

Now even tests and proms are used to explain a slower time (I know, not a complaint, just wondering). Maybe, since I am one of those "parents" I am wrong when I think that kind of question- Do your kids slow down at prelims and finals because of tests and proms or is it just mine? could not possibly be a legitimate question but a not so clever attempt to explain slower times. In my mind that is the same as asking if other coaches have kids that like to eat, or is it just mine?

These are teenagers. Even elite coaches will have runners who have down days. I don't think anyone really disrespects a coach because the kids are human.

Like my grandparents and parents I have done my best to drill into my kids heads the no excuses take responsibility ethics I was taught. When I hear high school athletes making excuses, I wonder if maybe their parent or coach is teaching that.

Thank you so much for those that are posting an even handed response to this thread. And YES there are great coaches in public schools, private schools, clubs, and there a poor ones in all fields too.

By the way, the win win win goes both ways when a high school coach gets to take credit for what the club\ private coach sent them to develop. When the coaches, parents, and kids talk to each other then things might work out. I have heard that even in the best of programs, without outside interference or dumb parents getting in the way, some kids suffer injuries and have bad days.

Leo Hernnandez
05-15-2013, 06:27 PM
I would have to agree with Doug Soles. I've been coaching at Monroe H.S for 14 years and the very few instances I've had with private coaches have been squashed. What ends up happening is the kids transfer to other schools that do allow private coaches, since I don't. That might explain why I never get kids from the youth track programs from around my H.S

ThreeTrees
05-15-2013, 09:27 PM
For Coach Hernandez: Thank you Coach for sharing. I really have to ask though, why? Why would you ever deny the kids the opportunity to become the best they can be? Why would you ever stand in their way? Why do they need to leave their friends and transfer for a better opportunity? Why should they pay thousands of dollars to attend Notre Dame, Alemany, Crespi or any of the other private schools out by you? I really have to ask, what makes you so special? At least Doug and Tony produce results that partially support their positions. But Monroe? Do you really wonder why the kids at your school seek private coaching? Or why they transfer? And I ask this seriously, why? Please, explain, what makes you so special?

How did your runners fare last week? 12.36 – 100, 2:07 – 800, 4:38 – 1600, 9:58 – 3200, 5-8” – HJ, 18-2” – LJ, NH- PV. I’m sorry, but someone help me understand how anyone with those top marks could justify denying an athlete a private coach. Heck, there are several top youth coaches in the southland that can almost do that with 8th graders. Most of those results would not place in the top 3 in FR/SO league final races for Div 1 or 2. This is precisely the program that should welcome outside coaching and embrace the kids desire to be the best.

The short answer. We all know it. Coaches can do whatever they want. That’s it. The teachers union and the CIF supports them. How anyone could penalize an athlete that wanted to transfer away from that mess is unfathomable. How?

For Tony: We both have better things to do than to engage in another Mr. Zelinski debate (I guess I missed the inside joke). You seem to get it though. If you really want to play the statistics game, here’s some for you.

The U.S. has fallen far from the its lofty ranking of No. 1 some 50 years ago. Every international study for the last decade (including the following from the OECD) now ranks the U.S. near the bottom in math and science, and in the bottom half in reading. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/07/education/07education.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 the Department of Education also concurs. Our peers around the world consistently rank higher than us, despite the U.S. outspending every country in the world on per student basis. http://rossieronline.usc.edu/u-s-education-versus-the-world-infographic/

What was it that Mr. Chan alluded to a few months back: it’s not the system or the teachers or the administration's fault. It’s the kids and their parents. The fact is, the evidence is overwhelming that our school system is failing. Well, not overwleming. There was a recent study that some pubic school supporters point to that shows more than 70% Americans “think we’re doing well.” Why that would matter, beats me. But I guess as long as we think it, that’s all that matters.

So, tell me about the data on your side. Let’s see you prove your point, or do you just "think" the public school coaches are great. Show me that the public school coaches are what you say they are. There are perhaps 700 high schools in the CIF-SS. I defy you to show me that 50% of them can coach a 16’0 pole vaulter, a 4:10 miler, and a 7’0 high jumper. Ok, perhaps that’s not realistic, so let’s try for something easier. Try 25%. No? Perhaps 10% then. No again? Well, why not just go for 5%. A mere 5% of the public school coaches. If there are as many great coaches in the CIF-SS as you suggest, just list the 30 public school coaches that have coached each of those elite marks. What makes you think that coaches like the one above can actually coach a 16’ / 4:10 / 7’0 athlete? Or that so many of your peers can adequately coach all the different events (not just one). I’ve also coached sprinters, hurdlers and distance athletes over my life. But I don’t have the arrogance to suggest I can coach a high jumper and a pole vaulter as well.

The fact is, there are some truly amazing public coaches out there. Bill Aris comes to mind. The legendary Joe Newton coached Sage, McNamara and Driggs over the past decade or so, and he had so many more sub 9:20 runners. But who among the CIF can lay claim to their resumes? Ok, maybe 1 or 2 coaches come to mind, but that's it.

I'm actually not in favor of private coaches that can’t work with a program. But telling kids that they can’t work with a private coach is one more example of the ineptitude of the public coaching system. The art and music departments would never tell a kid to drop their private lessons. The English, math and science teachers don’t tell their kids to drop Elite, Kaplan or Princeton Review. Only in athletics do you see this unbelievable arrogance; this inability to work with anyone. This, I have the whistle so I’m in charge, mentality. It's so often about a power trip.

But, this all comes back again to the issue of allowing free choice so kids can pursue their passions (e.g., no recruiting and/or transfer restrictions), because then either the kids would be given an opportunity or coaches like the one above would figure out how to work with the privates. But, alas, now we’re just beating a dead horse.

Sadly, when I see the comments from all of the posters above, I can't help but think of the old adage: Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach. And those that can't teach, coach.

Remylive
05-15-2013, 09:51 PM
You sir have no class.

I have never met nor spoken to Coach Hernandez before. But from afar, at COC races, invitationals and the times I've attended city meets I've admired his dedication and enthusiasm for our sport.

I'm a city section kid. During my time there my HS coach was only able to produce "top marks" of 4:40 and 10:30 for me which were the best on my team. Later on I continued to have steady improvement (ran 3:55) and more importantly continued my love and dedication for this sport instilled to me by my public school coach. Bottom line is, every school, every city, every district has a different make-up and dynamic, some more advantageous than others. Yet men like Coach Hernandez continue to work, continue to inspire and continue to instill more than just miles into young athletes.

I consider myself a very good coach, but I doubt that I could match what he's done at Monroe if I were in his shoes.

For you to sit here and call a man out behind an anonymous screen name tells me everything I need to know about your character.

Rene Paragas

ThreeTrees
05-15-2013, 09:57 PM
Sure Reny, I guess Doug can call out all the private coaches as evil, and the other coaches can call out the kids and parents for being selfish. A few months back some coach called out a kid that goes to a school up north, by name, but I didn't see you coming to her defense. Another coach called out someone else, and Doug's response was, but I didn't say it was ok.

Thanks for making my point though. Am I really surprised by the reaction from a public school coach?

Remylive
05-15-2013, 10:05 PM
Sure Reny, I guess Doug can call out all the private coaches as evil, and the other coaches can call out the kids and parents for being selfish. A few months back some coach called out a kid that goes to a school up north, by name, but I didn't see you coming to her defense. Another coach called out someone else, and Doug's response was, but I didn't say it was ok.

Thanks for making my point though. Am I really surprised by the reaction from a public school coach?
Once again classless. You're argument rests on the assumption that I have somehow scoured the internet and know about the transgression that you speak about and made the choice not to defend some kid that I never heard of. Well thought out.

It's not the message I have a problem with. It's the messenger.

Your in your face approach would be okay with me if you were willing to take responsibility for your words/ actions. Clearly you are not. What's your argument? Freedom of speech? Let me save you time and just go to the admin and track down your identity and make that public here. Freedom of speech right?

ThreeTrees
05-15-2013, 10:11 PM
Once again classless. You're argument rests on the assumption that I have somehow scoured the internet and know about the transgression that you speak about and made the choice not to defend some kid that I never heard of. Well thought out.

It's not the message I have a problem with. It's the messenger.

Your in your face approach would be okay with me if you were willing to take responsibility for your words/ actions. Clearly you are not. What's your argument? Freedom of speech? Let me save you time and just go to the admin and track down your identity and make that public here. Freedom of speech right?

Wow. That's low. Even for a public school coach. And a social science teacher no less. Again though, not really surprising. It's truly amazing how people protect their castle.

I'm not in the union. You seem to forget, I care about the kids, not the self-serving coaches and the CIF.

Remylive
05-15-2013, 10:17 PM
Wow. That's low. Even for a public school coach. And a social science teacher no less. Again though, not really surprising. It's truly amazing how people protect their castle.

I'm not in the union. You seem to forget, I care about the kids, not the self-serving coaches and the CIF.
Right that really shows in your maturity level. Let me know when they saint you.

Truth is I don't disagree with what you have to say about private coaches, what's best for athletes, etc. I'm the first guy to go for help when I'm not up to the task, especially during Track and Field. I can't disagree with your logic. Some of your statistics and arguments are very compelling and thought provoking.

And you can throw all the public school sarcasm you want at me. Just try to take a step back and read some of the things you've written. This board is a community. I just think we get nowhere when it's reduced to personal attacks, on both sides, me included.

ThreeTrees
05-15-2013, 10:31 PM
Right that really shows in your maturity level. Let me know when they saint you.

Truth is I don't disagree with what you have to say about private coaches, what's best for athletes, etc. I'm the first guy to go for help when I'm not up to the task, especially during Track and Field. I can't disagree with your logic. Some of your statistics and arguments are very compelling and thought provoking.

And you can throw all the public school sarcasm you want at me. Just try to take a step back and read some of the things you've written. This board is a community. I just think we get nowhere when it's reduced to personal attacks, on both sides, me included.

Remy, this is a community only if you support the coaches over the kids. I choose not to. This is a board that routinely attacks kids, parents and outside coaches (think of the girl up north). I didn't start this thread. But I will certainly defend the kids every time. I have and will continue to do so. You know my views. The CIF is a misguided entity that only supports the coaches. There is a chorus of support here for the CIF. That thread about the girl up north was hurtful, but no one came to her defense. No one said, that's classless. I can't support that.

As much as you may not like my post, the coach above is the perfect example of what's wrong with the system. You and so many others here simply don't want to address the issue. You don't want any focus on it. Kids are being penalized every day in the CIF. I'm sorry if I offend, but it's been going on long enough. Try coming to the defense of the kids for a change.

Remylive
05-15-2013, 10:38 PM
Remy, this is a community only if you support the coaches over the kids. I choose not to. This is a board that routinely attacks kids, parents and outside coaches (think of the girl up north). I didn't start this thread. But I will certainly defend the kids every time. I have and will continue to do so. You know my views. The CIF is a misguided entity that only supports the coaches. There is a chorus of support here for the CIF. That thread about the girl up north was hurtful, but no one came to her defense. No one said, that's classless. I can't support that.

As much as you may not like my post, the coach above is the perfect example of what's wrong with the system. You and so many others here simply don't want to address the issue. You don't want any focus on it. Kids are being penalized every day in the CIF. I'm sorry if I offend, but it's been going on long enough. Try coming to the defense of the kids for a change.
Fair enough. I can respect that.

Speaking of which. Please go to this site and read about this young man, a former athlete of mine that loves this sport as much as you or I. This puts things into perspective, at least for me.
http://brandosblog.weebly.com/1/archives/05-2013/1.html

Have a good night.

ThreeTrees
05-15-2013, 10:41 PM
Fair enough. I can respect that.

Speaking of which. Please go to this site and read about this young man, a former athlete of mine that loves this sport as much as you or I. This puts things into perspective, at least for me.
http://brandosblog.weebly.com/1/archives/05-2013/1.html

Have a good night.

Heartbreaking. I'm am so sorry. And so touching. He's a marvel.

Good night to you as well.

Tony DiMarco
05-15-2013, 11:20 PM
ThreeTrees... I'm still waiting for that apology????? You attack "high school coaches" and as one I would like an apology for your rude remarks about us,
Many of the public school "coaches" are nothing more than glorified P.E. teachers, masquerading as coaches with a belief they know something about the sport because they carry a whistle and get paid for their efforts. To suggest that any one of them can coach a 16’0 pole vaulter along with a 4:10 miler and a 7’0 high jumper is preposterous. They’re “coaching” perhaps 200 kids with all levels of ability and desire, and many times it’s simply herding cats
By the way, how do you herd cats? And since we are on the subject I think an apology to Coach Hernandez would be appropriate. Don’t you think…

If you want to post without using your name hey that’s up to you (of course as a coach I can’t tell you how many times I have heard my AD tell me that so and so “who wants to remain nameless” has this complaint about you)… So where in your logic or theirs does this philosophy solve the issue that led to the complaint, if you can’t face the person you are accusing of wrong doing then how can you expect to rectify the problem? If you want us to take you more serious then I suggest you take us serious and stop with the verbal assaults on our coaching abilities. You don’t know us just like we don’t know you! To make comments about anyone’s coaching ability without truly knowing shows a bias on your part. I know I would take you more serious if you used your real name but as I said before I don’t really care who you are because you represent a way of thinking that needs no name.

Now that we got that out of the way, let me answer your questions on stats (you do realize I’m a stat junkie right). Before I do that I really want to clear the air on the whole coaching the 17 footer or whatever you were talking about… Why would a coach need to be able to coach those athletes? Wouldn’t I have a staff in which each of those events would have a qualified coach to work with? Wouldn’t I (especially if I had that type of talent) go out and find those athletes the best qualified coach I could find to work with them? So I am really lost on that one? Would I not be doing a disservice to the miler if I had to split time from his workouts to work with the pole vaulter etc.? This of course brings up another point… why doesn’t the “private coach” work with the team coach if they lack the “qualified” person to guide that athlete? After all… don’t you think we want those athletes to have the best coach possible? The answer is money! No “private coach” wants to work for a “high school” team because they make a lot more money working away from public schools. We are bound by laws while they are bound by the desire of the parent to buy their child the “best” (and I use that term loosely) coaching possible. They don’t want to be bound to only coaching one program because that would mean less money! If we are going to be honest… then let’s be honest! Look I don’t completely mind the “private coach” as long as they work with (NOT) against the high school coach. WHY? Because if that athlete wants to run for that high school program then they are bound by the rules of that program and the private coach should agree to that if they truly want what’s best for that athlete because wins and losses and PR’s are secondary to what a high school age athlete should really be learning which is teamwork… You know that stuff that makes us a better country! The ability of workers to work together to make their profession better! Seriously, you want to live in a country where we are all out to get ours and screw everyone else?

Coaches that are commenting on “private coaches” are not stating that their athletes cannot work with that coach? I don’t see where you are getting that from? Quite the contrary! We would love the help! BUT only if they play by the rules which as I mentioned in my previous post would be first and foremost to do what is in the best interest of the athlete. There are many “private coaches” who have the so called power trip you are talking about us having who say what the athlete can do or not do without regard to what is in the best interest of the team and athlete (if they are on our team… then they are on our team… should I say the word team again). We have a “Private Coach” in our neck of the woods who told an athlete of a rival school that she was not allowed to run her league finals because he said so… Why? The same person last year would have all of his coached athletes fake an injury before the Thursday dual meet so that they would be rested for the Saturday invite he schedule them to run in… The Head Coach unable to stop any of this allowed it to happen… BUT if we were to do the right thing and say NO, if you don’t run Thursday, you don’t run Saturday then we are be the so called bullies you refer to us as? Please, I can’t wait for your rebuttal to that!

Ok, back to stats… Let’s begin with your education stats… actually let’s just throws those out since we are talking about athletics! Our education system is broken and we all are aware of that! In the 1980s and much of the 90’s distance running in the United States at all levels took a back seat to the rest of the world.. We had a few ranked runners such as Todd Williams, Bob Kennedy, Marc Davis, Adam Goucher among a few others who were the best our country could produce but ONLY Bob Kennedy could make an Olympic Final (and he trained with the Kenyans)… Clearly coaching in the US was flawed… You cannot disagree that American distance running (sorry my argument will be center around distance running since that what I do) is back on the map! Why? Please don’t tell me it’s because of drugs or Alberto Salazar! Alberto is awesome but he doesn’t coach everyone (he should, but he doesn’t). Clearly American distance running is back because we as high school coaches have been producing athletes who have made the jump to the pro level. Over the last decade there has been more American high school runners breaking 4 minutes or coming very close to it than the previous two decades. We have seen more assaults on the record boards in recent years and the level of competition at the state level has become insane especially on the girls side! Why? Because of clinics and the exchange of training ideas and the general will of coaches to adapt and progress! To say that we aren’t doing our job is the biggest pile of horse crap I have ever heard! Now does that mean every program in America has a qualified coach? NO. I think you would agree that is impossible. Are there coaches who are the “glorified P.E. coaches” you state we all are? Yes, there are some. I don’t think it’s possible to have none! BUT to say that we are not qualified and but a few coaches produce quality athletes in which you use 9:20 as an example of a “standard” of achievement is a self-imposed standard that you view as achievement. I’m sorry please explain to me where you think EVERY team in America can produce a large amount of 9:20 runners? Yes a few programs can do that… I think talent and various other requirements are necessary for that argument to be valid. And let’s not even begin to discuss the hundreds of things coaches do that do not show up in the stat books… To say that California coaches are the things you call us is not only a weak argument but it shows your bias towards coaches and your unwillingness to understand the sport, coaches and most importantly human beings. Coaches coach on a public school campus the athletes who walk through their door… how many programs can claim that they had a sub 4 minute miler on it that they screwed up because of their incompetence? Really? How many? Why don’t you come down to Whittier and hang out with my clientele for a week and tell me what type of job you think I’m doing after the week is over! Why don’t you go to Monroe and do the same or Saugus or any school for that matter… Put your stats to the test! If you think we are so bad I invite you to our practices, I invite you to ALL of our practices! But until then… save your rude remarks for your own personal situation which started your rant in the first place… As I told Mr. Zelinski many years ago… I’m sorry you had a bad experience but that was YOUR experience and it is not so everywhere… to assume that it is well you know the rest.

ThreeTrees
05-15-2013, 11:34 PM
Uggh. My deepest condolences go out to Mr. Zelinski for having engaged in an exchange.

You're an incredibly bright guy, but your wife is right. You lose perspective when you get too caught up. Please, take a deep breadth. That was a rambling mess. You're so much better than that.

I'm signing off from this thread with great disappointment (and my usual disgust).

Tony DiMarco
05-15-2013, 11:43 PM
Yes it was a ramble but not a mess. There were some arguments I hoped you would address but I guess you over looked them because they hit too close to home. I assume you can't fight my private coach wanted more money argument or that we as coaches have improved over the last decade! No need for the apology... Just at this point be respectful and we will call it even.

ThreeTrees
05-15-2013, 11:55 PM
Yes it was a ramble but not a mess. There were some arguments I hoped you would address but I guess you over looked them because they hit too close to home. I assume you can't fight my private coach wanted more money argument or that we as coaches have improved over the last decade! No need for the apology... Just at this point be respectful and we will call it even.

Tony, are you sure you want to go mano-a-mano on this? I don’t mind. I always like a good debate. As long as we can stay focused and we don’t have the distractions of others coming to your rescue, I don’t mind sticking around a little longer. Let me go read your thread again and give you a response.

Martin Pennell
05-16-2013, 02:44 AM
Wow stuff just got REAL on this board. I thought the athletes used to get into it on the old Dyestat board but this just blew them out of the water. Thank you for providing some interesting reading. Tony D., great points so far, spot on. ThreeTrees, what is your point? You seem to be quite argumentative but I'm still not totally clear on what you are really trying to get across. I'm not even sure if you guys are debating the same topic.

ThreeTrees, this a Track/XC board and covers all events but you must realize who uses it, distance coaches, like 90%+. Now if you want to talk about the pole vault I'm sure your case would hold a lot more water. Specialized and technical events are far less "popular" for lack of a better term. How many pole vaulters in the U.S. are there? How many post-collegiate pole vaulters are there? How many pole vaulters in their 40's are there? I'll bet there are more 60+ year old 5k'ers in the U.S. than there are total pole vaulters. What does this mean? That far fewer people have experience pole vaulting and even fewer with coaching expertise. I'll bet the average U.S. high school pole vault coach is not more than 4-6 years removed from high school. They go and get a "real job" and are replaced by the next 22 yr old (this is just a generalization but I'm sure I could back it up). In this case the most qualified pole vault instructor within a 30 mile radius of any school just might be a private citizen. But we are talking about distance runners, no shortage of experience here. As good as Tony and Rene are, they are still "young guys" by comparison to most of their peers. I have never met or even heard of a private coach with a resume to match the guys that are "regulars" in the CIF Finals.

So again I ask, what exactly is the point you trying to make? Is it that kids should be free to choose the best coach? If it is, I agree with you. They should be able to choose the best coach and if it isn't the local high school coach then they go private. It is the high school coach's team though and it is his prerogative as to who gets to put on a jersey. Will the better private coach ultimately benefit the kid though? NOt necessarily. Say a boy runs a 4:40 mile as senior, not exactly scholarship material but he might have had a blast and a great high school experience. Perhaps the private coach could have got him to 4:27, these days you are still pretty hard pressed to get a college coach's attention even with that time. Then the question becomes where do you race? How often? You can always find a competitive road race, but 3200's? NOT SO MUCH. As far as XC goes nobody cares if you run 14:50 in a road race because who knows the course or the distance. What did you run at MSAC? Woodward? Stanford? These are the questions college coaches will ask.

I'm not against private coaches. I've done it myself with some VERY HIGH PROFILE individuals and some VERY HIGH PROFILE teams. I simply provide what they were missing and only supplement their own coach's program. I would never add additional "work" or "training" though that would add to the load that their coaches prescribe. I have also brought in private coaches to work with some of my best kids who were really looking to be as good as they could be. These coaches would privately work with them on the things that time would not allow for us to do on a regular basis. Private coaches need to keep the school program in the foreground or the kid should probably just quit the team. To quote a "slow and inexperienced" local high school coach, "that's my story and I'm sticking to it."

ThreeTrees
05-16-2013, 04:18 AM
For Tony: Let me make a few prefatory remarks.

First, you can’t “hit too close to home” with me. I don’t have a pony in the race. My kids are all beyond HS sports. I’m also not a private coach. No, to me the issue is far bigger than sports. Its fundamental fairness and individual liberties. I have a huge issue with the public school system standing in the way of students/athletes. I don’t really mind that it may not be the best for advancing kids (who on this earth doesn’t have room for improvement?), but its offensive when it actually stands in their way.

Second, “herding cats” is a metaphor. From Wikipedia, a metaphor is “a figure of speech that describes a subject by asserting that it is, on some point of comparison, the same as another otherwise unrelated object.” The point was that you can’t really herd cats. It’s disorganization taken to extreme. You can’t accomplish anything. Which, by the way, is precisely what happens when a public school coach, without the proper resources, attempts to coach 200 kids and at the same time tries to teach a 16’0 pole vaulter along with a 4:10 miler and 7’0 high jumper how to reach new personal bests.

Third, I’ll repeat my earlier admonitions. Trying to out someone in a forum is a form of bullying. It’s meant to intimidate and to coerce. It’s abuse. See it for what it is. It’s intended as a threat. Anyone that stoops to those levels is a psychological terrorist. It’s that simple.

Now, on to your points, or at least your three main points. The rambling makes it difficult to address your points, so excuse me if I overlook some of your lesser points.

First, private coaches do cherry pick to find the best talent to coach. Does that surprise anyone? Michael Phelps’ coach spotted him in a pool and convinced his parents that he could coach him to the Olympics, and he did. It was a match made in heaven. Do you really expect the private coach to go after the 12 year old that’s doggy paddling in the wading pool? Do you expect them to go after the 13:00 miler and convince the parents they should pay a boatload of money to improve the son/daughter down to 9:30? That’s the nature of the business. And not surprisingly, College coaches also recruit from the very best high school athletes. And the pros also draft the very best college athletes. And … well, I hope you get the point. It doesn’t make a lot of sense for the Pros to draft an athlete who never played (except of course the Adonis Lawrence Okoye), nor for the colleges to draft an athlete who never ran. Similarly, it doesn’t make a lot of sense for private coaches to try and influence parents to pay lots of money to improve their 13:00 miler down to 9:30. As a parent, I can assure you I won’t pay much, unless of course my kid really, really enjoys the sport. And if so, yes I’ll pay, but with a fair amount of trepidation and I certainly don’t expect other parents (or my wife) to respect me and congratulate me for spending my money wisely.

Second, let’s talk about stats and faulty logic. I said the public education system is failing. I gave you real stats. Thank you for acknowledging that the system is broken. Thank you for accepting my stats. But you said you were a stats guy. That you could back up your points. I asked for names and got nothing in return . . . on either the athletic or academic side. Pointing to the great U.S. runners at the elite level doesn’t support your argument that public school coaches know what they’re doing or that the system is not failng. That’s like saying, the U.S. earned 5 of the 9 Nobel prizes in 2012, so our public school system must be awesome. Since 1990 we’re also third behind only France and Russia for Fields medalists, but I hope none of you are jumping up and down about our public school math program. Do you have any idea what “flawed reasoning” or “faulty logic” means? And pointing to both Salazar (who coaches the best female high school runner of all time in Cain) and the only sub 4 minute miler over the past decade (Verzbicas) may not be the best for argument, as both Mary and Lukas were forced out of the NHFS. Are you intentionally sabotaging your brethren to make my point about the problems with the CIF?

Do you really have any stats on your side that support your argument? No. What you have is a strong feeling that what you and you’re brethren are doing is right, much like you academic counterparts. That’s just going through the motions. Frankly, there’s no question the public school athletic system is failing the kids, just like its academic counterparts. Transfers would be non-existent otherwise. The public school athletic programs are simply failing with more bells and whistles that mask the real issues – the same issues that exist on the academic side.

Third, it’s tremendous that you have all the extra help. I presume your point was that all other public school coaches have just as many assistant coaches, and every single one is as good as the top guy, ne? Well, let’s explore that a little further. Do you really think that every coach has sufficient help to coach elite athletes? Rene thought not, and we all respect him. He coaches one of the best programs in the state. Even he will look to others at times. How many assistant coaches are qualified? How many assistant coaches do you think Coach Hernandez has? Exactly how many does it take to produce results like the ones mentioned above? Most coaches will look for help, but not Coach Hernandez. He “squashes” the help. And then what? Look at the results. Do I really owe him an apology? Oh, yes, I most certainly do for speaking so rudely and for not being gentler in my approach. But to be frank, his arrogance offends me. His condescension of private coaches and the kids and parents who retain them is grotesque. I hope he answers my questions, because I think he can add more to this discussion than anyone else here. He can explain what really motivates someone in his position to “squash” the outside private coaches and to make the kids transfer. I suspect he actually has legitimate reasons, or reasons that he thinks are right. You think it’s rude, but did you really have any concern for the athletes whose dreams are being “squashed” along with the private coach? When I read his post the hair on my neck went up. But you, did you even think twice about the athletes? And why should you? How many coaches on this thread are just part of the system?

Coach Hernandez is not alone. It would not surprise me if most on this site shared his views. I have met many over the years. Several months ago, at the outset of this season, a coach informed me that a boy who transferred in was, and I quote, “a bad kid.” Being the devout supporter of the athletes that I am and believing that someone should stand up for their rights, I had to ask, why? I had to find out what he’d done to merit such distinction. Was it theft, rape, or pillaging? This coach, with a straight, but irritated face, said, because he has his own private coach and this coach loses control of the team when that happens. I kid you not. Neither this coach, nor anyone on staff, had ever coached anyone at this level, and this athlete has already shown the potential well beyond elite. That is your brethren in the public school system. That is why I look at these threads and think, public school coaches feed on each other and promote more of the same.

I’m very good at what I do (not coaching), but there are others much better. I don’t feel threatened when a client wants another set of eyes. I know my limitations. Why is it the public school coaches don’t? Oh, I recall. Your email was insightful. I think you acknowledged that the public school system is failing, but only on the academic side. The sport side is doing just fine. Let’s see, they have only 1 union on their side, but the sports guys have 2. I hope you don’t mind my chuckling for a moment, but I think this is the first time anyone’s tried to argue that to heal the public school system we need more, not less, unions. Can I borrow that? But seriously, do you really think the sports side is better that their academic counterparts. When I hear of transfers, they’re typically coaching related. Why so many transfers if the sports side is superior to the academics?

(continued)

ThreeTrees
05-16-2013, 04:19 AM
And as for your point about withholding athletes so they can run at an invitational, that is a real problem. There’s no mistaking that some private coaches fail to appreciate the concept of the team. But it’s not something reserved for private coaches. High school coaches also hold the athletes out of dual meets. Some care so much about the individual athletes that they’re willing to sacrifice a meaningless dual meet for the betterment of the athlete. Please don’t misconstrue what I say, again. Dual meets are not all meaningless. But when you’re in last place and the meet is meaningless, why sacrifice the elite athlete. I’ve seen some coaches also do it regardless. They sacrifice the athlete on principle alone. They run the elite athlete in four events just to show that they’re in charge and the team comes first. And quite frankly, I’ve also seen athletes walk away from those coaches because they don’t care about the athletes, they care about their own position. They care about their power. It’s appalling. But you do raise a difficult issue that even parents have to face with the coaches sometimes. There’s no easy answer to that and it’s fact-specific. I cannot say that “the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the [one]”, or vice versa, in every case because the import of each individual and each individual meet should enter into the calculus.

And you raise another good point. There are some bad private coaches out there, just like there are some bad public high school coaches. But the CIF rules are not balanced to address the bad public high school coaches. The rules penalize athletes for transferring away from a disagreeable coach. If you were to take a poll of all the athletes that transferred, and their parents, I have little doubt that you would find that the problems with public high school sports are no different than with academics. That I can confirm both personally and anecdotally from other parents.

But I’ll tell you what. I’ll meet you halfway. I’ll apologize. We need to make it mutual though. I’ll apologize for questioning the virtues of the public school coaches and the CIF. I’ll apologize for the manner in which I present my thoughts. I’ll apologize for what you perceive as pit-bull attacks against the public high school coaches. And all I ask in return is that you and your CIF brethren apologize to every athlete that ever lost a minute of playing time in their sport because of your rules. That you and your brethren apologize to every athlete that suffered, frustrated and without recourse, under an inept coach. That you and your brethren apologize to every private coach that suffered the indignities of questioning their skills or calling them sycophants. That you and your brethren apologize to every parent for questioning their desire to improve the system or do what’s best for their kids.

Seems fair doesn’t it. Are you really ready for an enlightened exchange?

BTW Tony – before you respond, recognize that I am voicing the opinions of so many parents out there. I’m simply far more vocal and direct about it, in part because I’m on a site and forum that I actually like and I know it’s 1 against 1,000. But parents, in general, express both support for the public school system and extreme dissatisfaction. Many are fed up and would love to express their views. And yet, most coaches on this thread try to suppress the exposition of those views. Do you ever wonder why then there is so much dissatisfaction with the school system? Go back over this thread and see the responses and you will have a good idea.

Maybe you should take a deep breath before you send off a response.

ThreeTrees
05-16-2013, 04:23 AM
Martin,

My issue is simple. Choice. This really comes back to the broader issue of transfers/recruiting. I wouldn't be as concerned if a coach refused to work with private coaches, as long as the student could transfer out with impunity. Same old issue, just wearing a different jersey.

Matt Rainwater
05-16-2013, 06:02 AM
Gentlemen,

You do realize that "ThreeTrees" is trolling all of you? He'll fade a away as soon as you stop posting.

Leo Hernnandez
05-16-2013, 06:46 AM
For Coach Hernandez: Thank you Coach for sharing. I really have to ask though, why? Why would you ever deny the kids the opportunity to become the best they can be? Why would you ever stand in their way? Why do they need to leave their friends and transfer for a better opportunity? Why should they pay thousands of dollars to attend Notre Dame, Alemany, Crespi or any of the other private schools out by you? I really have to ask, what makes you so special? At least Doug and Tony produce results that partially support their positions. But Monroe? Do you really wonder why the kids at your school seek private coaching? Or why they transfer? And I ask this seriously, why? Please, explain, what makes you so special?

How did your runners fare last week? 12.36 – 100, 2:07 – 800, 4:38 – 1600, 9:58 – 3200, 5-8” – HJ, 18-2” – LJ, NH- PV. I’m sorry, but someone help me understand how anyone with those top marks could justify denying an athlete a private coach. Heck, there are several top youth coaches in the southland that can almost do that with 8th graders. Most of those results would not place in the top 3 in FR/SO league final races for Div 1 or 2. This is precisely the program that should welcome outside coaching and embrace the kids desire to be the best.

The short answer. We all know it. Coaches can do whatever they want. That’s it. The teachers union and the CIF supports them. How anyone could penalize an athlete that wanted to transfer away from that mess is unfathomable. How?

For Tony: We both have better things to do than to engage in another Mr. Zelinski debate (I guess I missed the inside joke). You seem to get it though. If you really want to play the statistics game, here’s some for you.

The U.S. has fallen far from the its lofty ranking of No. 1 some 50 years ago. Every international study for the last decade (including the following from the OECD) now ranks the U.S. near the bottom in math and science, and in the bottom half in reading. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/07/education/07education.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 the Department of Education also concurs. Our peers around the world consistently rank higher than us, despite the U.S. outspending every country in the world on per student basis. http://rossieronline.usc.edu/u-s-education-versus-the-world-infographic/

What was it that Mr. Chan alluded to a few months back: it’s not the system or the teachers or the administration's fault. It’s the kids and their parents. The fact is, the evidence is overwhelming that our school system is failing. Well, not overwleming. There was a recent study that some pubic school supporters point to that shows more than 70% Americans “think we’re doing well.” Why that would matter, beats me. But I guess as long as we think it, that’s all that matters.

So, tell me about the data on your side. Let’s see you prove your point, or do you just "think" the public school coaches are great. Show me that the public school coaches are what you say they are. There are perhaps 700 high schools in the CIF-SS. I defy you to show me that 50% of them can coach a 16’0 pole vaulter, a 4:10 miler, and a 7’0 high jumper. Ok, perhaps that’s not realistic, so let’s try for something easier. Try 25%. No? Perhaps 10% then. No again? Well, why not just go for 5%. A mere 5% of the public school coaches. If there are as many great coaches in the CIF-SS as you suggest, just list the 30 public school coaches that have coached each of those elite marks. What makes you think that coaches like the one above can actually coach a 16’ / 4:10 / 7’0 athlete? Or that so many of your peers can adequately coach all the different events (not just one). I’ve also coached sprinters, hurdlers and distance athletes over my life. But I don’t have the arrogance to suggest I can coach a high jumper and a pole vaulter as well.

The fact is, there are some truly amazing public coaches out there. Bill Aris comes to mind. The legendary Joe Newton coached Sage, McNamara and Driggs over the past decade or so, and he had so many more sub 9:20 runners. But who among the CIF can lay claim to their resumes? Ok, maybe 1 or 2 coaches come to mind, but that's it.

I'm actually not in favor of private coaches that can’t work with a program. But telling kids that they can’t work with a private coach is one more example of the ineptitude of the public coaching system. The art and music departments would never tell a kid to drop their private lessons. The English, math and science teachers don’t tell their kids to drop Elite, Kaplan or Princeton Review. Only in athletics do you see this unbelievable arrogance; this inability to work with anyone. This, I have the whistle so I’m in charge, mentality. It's so often about a power trip.

But, this all comes back again to the issue of allowing free choice so kids can pursue their passions (e.g., no recruiting and/or transfer restrictions), because then either the kids would be given an opportunity or coaches like the one above would figure out how to work with the privates. But, alas, now we’re just beating a dead horse.

Sadly, when I see the comments from all of the posters above, I can't help but think of the old adage: Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach. And those that can't teach, coach.

Those times and marks you put on your post from my league meet happened to be performed by great kids that started with not much of anything. Go to athletic.net find my school then click on their names and see where they started before you make a point that they wouldn't place in a southland 8th grade class. I enjoy coaching local kids and if you notice and do some research, i've had my share of great track athletes over the past 14 years that were developed and home grown. And there are 5 great assistant coaches with me that help me greatly and not only want to just coach the best, they coach everyone the same.

Doug Soles
05-16-2013, 06:49 AM
Gentlemen,

You do realize that "ThreeTrees" is trolling all of you? He'll fade a away as soon as you stop posting.

Matt,

I don't think he is. I think he is that crazy parent that we all have in our programs that we think to ourselves "at what point is this parent going to be satisfied with the kids' success?" The answer for these guys is never. Neither 3trees or rnrdad will be happy with anything we post because they have had bad experiences with CIF or a coach themselves or through their kid (3trees, ask him how many times he transferred his kid to a different school...), so they spew the venom towards us to try to fill the void that was created in their egos by those experiences. Regardless of who we are, what we say, or how valid our points are, they will fire back with negativity. It is their nature, they know no other way. Some people just won't be satisfied. As a young coach that used to bother me with parents, but now I realize it doesn't have anything to do with me, it doesn't matter how much we win, how much we win by, how many kids get scholarships, etc. To some parents I will never be a good enough coach, because I coach at a high school.

Good to see the message board alive and kicking again, even with the craziness. :)

3trees and rnrdad, you keep fighting the good fight. ;)

Doug

rnrdad
05-16-2013, 07:37 AM
Matt,

I don't think he is. I think he is that crazy parent that we all have in our programs that we think to ourselves "at what point is this parent going to be satisfied with the kids' success?" The answer for these guys is never. Neither 3trees or rnrdad will be happy with anything we post because they have had bad experiences with CIF or a coach themselves or through their kid (3trees, ask him how many times he transferred his kid to a different school...), so they spew the venom towards us to try to fill the void that was created in their egos by those experiences. Regardless of who we are, what we say, or how valid our points are, they will fire back with negativity. It is their nature, they know no other way. Some people just won't be satisfied. As a young coach that used to bother me with parents, but now I realize it doesn't have anything to do with me, it doesn't matter how much we win, how much we win by, how many kids get scholarships, etc. To some parents I will never be a good enough coach, because I coach at a high school.

Good to see the message board alive and kicking again, even with the craziness. :)

3trees and rnrdad, you keep fighting the good fight. ;)

Doug


Sorry Doug, but you need to be corrected.

I have not had bad experiences with CIF or coaches, public or private. In fact I keep repeating that most are doing a very good job, and some are doing outstanding jobs.

I used to coach elementary and middle school kids, both club and school, and my kids went to all manner of high school, and some are getting ready to graduate University from all across the nation.

As I first said, as a parent, (my primary role) helping a kid get to college\university is what matters much more than time and titles. In my ten years of coaching (I went to every LA84 clinic during that time by the way in order to learn from you guys) I repeatedly told everyone of my kids that I WAS NOT COACHING THEM TO RUN IN COLLEGE, but hoping that if they chose to run in high school they could use the sport as the third leg of the stool for college admission - 1. Grades, 2. SAT score 3. Extra curricular activity. More than a few of my elemntray and middle schoolers won regional and national championships and setting age group records along the way.

A good number ran for their various high schools and won some state titles and set some records. A few ran, or run in college, some even got money! I did not coach them in high school so I take no credit for that- it was the high school program that did it all.

BUT, WHAT I am most proud of, 90% of my kids have gone to, and are succeeding in very good univerisites. NO doubt, the parents and the high school are directly responsible for this. Maybe, my insistence that if you were going to train with me you would take responsibilty for your own actions and not blame someone else if you didn't do the work or had a bad day - might have had something to with it. At least I hope.

Maybe that is why the kids come by to see me when they are in town. My first question is always how are your grades. We might get around to running later.

NO, Doug, my issue with the threads you have started is that, as a coach you have all the advantages in the world. Yet you whine and complain and blame others for any poor performance or bad day by any of your athletes. Evil coaches, dumb parents, tests, proms....

Before any of you take me to task and demand that I apologize to Doug, --- I have been very polite, told him he is great, and still say so -- he called me out without knowing a darn thing about which he spoke. He needs to apologize to me, and maybe all the dumb parents and kids he sees.

Doug Soles
05-16-2013, 07:57 AM
Sorry Doug, but you need to be corrected.

I have not had bad experiences with CIF or coaches, public or private. In fact I keep repeating that most are doing a very good job, and some are doing outstanding jobs.

I used to coach elementray and middle school kids, both club and school, and my kids went to all manner of high school, and some are getting ready to graduate University from all across the nation.

As I first said, as a parent, (my primary role) helping a kid get to college\university is what mattered much more than time and titles. In my ten years of coaching (I went to every LA84 clinic during that time by the way in order to learn from you guys) I repeatedly told everyone of my kids that I WAS NOT COACHING THEM TO RUN IN COLLEGE, but hoping that if they chose to run in high school they could use the sport as the third leg of the stool for college admission - 1. Grades, 2. SAT score 3. Extra curricular activity. More than a few of my elemntray and middle schoolers won regional and national championships and setting age group records along the way. A good number ran for their various high schools and won some state titles and set some records. A few ran, or run in college, some even got money!

BUT, WHAT I am most proud of, 90% of my kids have gone to, and are succeeding in very good univerisites. NO doubt, the parents and the high school are directly responsible for this. Maybe, my insistence that if you were going to train with me you would take responsibilty for your own actions and not blame someone else if you didn't do the work or had a bad day - might have had something to with it. At least I hope. Maybe that is why the kids come by to see me when they are in town. My first question is always how are your grades. We might get around to running later.

NO, Doug, my issue with the threads you have started is that, as a coach you have all the advantages in the world. Yet you whine and complain and blame others for any poor performance or bad day by any of your athletes. Evil coaches, dumb parents, test, proms....

Before any of you take me to task and demand that I apologize to Doug, --- I have been very polite, told him he is great, and still say so -- he called me out without knowing a darn thing about which he spoke. He needs to apologize to me, amd maybe all the dumb parents and kids he sees.

Haha, I need no apology. :)

Agreed, at Great Oak we have many advantages and use them. You can call me a whiner if you like, and I'm sure there are few things I have whined about a bit. I didn't whine about tests keeping my kids from running fast, I simply was curious as to how other coaches out there felt the tests were effecting their kids. My kids performed fine at CIF Prelims, but I learned something from posting that which was my goal. Coach Reaser brought up a great point that in college they will be running their end of the season races during finals and need to be prepared for it. I hadn't looked at it that way and feel educated by the whole experience and am glad I posted it. You seemed to want to say I was making excuses for my kids performances by posting it, but you missed the whole point. I will go on record as saying the things all of our kids do on a daily basis amaze me!

As far as whining and blaming others, there are few interviews out there from me and I believe I take responsibility for my teams failures. Sometimes things happen beyond our control that change the outcome from what should have been possible (in our case this year a private coach with his own agenda), and I wanted to share those experiences with my peers so that if they are dealing with those situations they know they are not alone (which I believe this message board is for, isn't it?). I believe I have the fortune of talking to a lot of amazing coaches each weekend and I get asked the same questions a lot, like "what happened to your relays?" Anyone that knows me knows I will share my thoughts. If you want to spin everything I say as an excuse, be my guest, I stand behind my job as the coach for Great Oak and believe the results speak for themselves. You can say we are only successful because of our advantages, but I see many schools that have those same advantages or more not performing as consistently well as we have. If you are interested, please feel free to come and spend some time with our program. It seems you may be a little out of touch with what is currently going on in the world of coaching. Out of curiosity (not bullying because heaven forbid anyone ask you or 3trees to stand behind your words with your actual name) when was the last year you coached a team (not an individual)?

Doug

ThreeTrees
05-16-2013, 08:31 AM
Doug,

I’ll share another story. In my line of work I don’t get to sit in an ivory tower and make fun of others or be dismissive the way you can be. Sadly, look around your girl’s team. There’s an issue that will likely affect 1 in 4 of them over the next 10 years. It’s call rape. It goes by a lot of names: date rape, rape by acquaintance, rape by intoxication. It’s an epidemic in our country. And thankfully, college age women are finally fighting back. There’s a wildfire sweeping our nation, and hopefully there will be some major changes in the way men treat women.

Do you realize what’s behind so much of it? Coercion and power. A women would never have done what you just did. She wouldn’t have made that sly bullying remark. Women have a much deeper understanding of coercion and its ramifications.

I fight a lot of civil rights battles. Hardly something you’ll find out of a troll. But you are right in some respects. I wasn’t the crazy parent fighting for a better coach. No, my kid has a major disability. I was fighting the bureaucracy for something far more important. But I watched the likes of you destroy so many lives in the uncaring fashion you just exhibited.

I’m not particularly surprised by your comments. Thank you for reminding me again of how difficult the battle really is for so many.

rnrdad
05-16-2013, 08:54 AM
There you go again.

How many times do I have to say that I am a parent. That is the persepctive I post from.

As I have said before, I only reference my inisgnificant middle school coaching days as background, and only to emphasize that sports are a vehicle for college\university admissions and nothing more unless the kid is in the league of Cain, Hasay, Baxter, Webb, Ryun, etc.

So it does not mattter how long ago it was despite your attempt to belittle by asking. As three Trees points out "You are the High School Coach. Only you can know, or have a valid opinion so people like me should shut up and just be thankful we can read of your wisdom" or something like that.

I keep telling you you are a very good coach and you are at a very good school. I see your kids at meets and on the results board all the time. We all know of your accomplishments. We all applaud them. Do you need more kisses?

You have started three threads this year alone. They all have the same theme: Evil private coaches, dumb parents, Private schools that cheat are to blame for any little problem you or your kids have.

As I said in my earlier post, your "just asking" question about tests and proms, in my stupid insignificant mind was a ridiculous question. OF COURSE those things may cause a kid to run a little slower. In my meager mind, that was an attempt, well below your own standards, to pre-explain and place the blame elsewhere just in case one of your kids ran a little slower at finals or prelims. I still don't buy your excuse that some evil coach talked to a relay kid and that ruined the team chemistry, forced you to make changes, and that is the only reason your relays did not qualify. There may be a modicum of truth there, but if true, then I do question your coaching, in at least that instance. If you were one of my managers, I would ask you if you were admitting that you could not manage your department.

Whether you like it or not, many parents agree with three trees. As I said before many parents will not tell you what they really think, especially if they have read your posts. You, as a coach, have way too much power over their kids and parents do not want to add to their kids load in high school. The parents are glad the kid is in a sport and would like them to stay and most likely are farily satisfied, but do not get the coach mad!!!!!! And you know it.

Doug, your are a great coach. You coach at a great school. I have posted compliments to you for your kids getting into great universities.

Just stop whining.

Doug Soles
05-16-2013, 08:55 AM
Doug,

I’ll share another story. In my line of work I don’t get to sit in an ivory tower and make fun of others or be dismissive the way you can be. Sadly, look around your girl’s team. There’s an issue that will likely affect 1 in 4 of them over the next 10 years. It’s call rape. It goes by a lot of names: date rape, rape by acquaintance, rape by intoxication. It’s an epidemic in our country. And thankfully, college age women are finally fighting back. There’s a wildfire sweeping our nation, and hopefully there will be some major changes in the way men treat women.

Do you realize what’s behind so much of it? Coercion and power. A women would never have done what you just did. She wouldn’t have made that sly bullying remark. Women have a much deeper understanding of coercion and its ramifications.

I fight a lot of civil rights battles. Hardly something you’ll find out of a troll. But you are right in some respects. I wasn’t the crazy parent fighting for a better coach. No, my kid has a major disability. I was fighting the bureaucracy for something far more important. But I watched the likes of you destroy so many lives in the uncaring fashion you just exhibited.

I’m not particularly surprised by your comments. Thank you for reminding me again of how difficult the battle really is for so many.

I have no idea what your first paragraph is about or why it has anything to do with this debate. A little weird and overboard if you want my opinion.

This is a message board, I have no coercion or power over anyone on it. I have my opinions and you have yours. Please don't act like I'm some mean untouchable coach that just comes on here to bully people. I have no interest in doing so. You guys want to debate, feel free. You want to say we are nothing more than idiots with whistle's, feel free. If you both are going to dish it out, then you get to take it too.

People want to call me a whiner, fair enough I have whined about NXN, private coaches, CIF & transfers, and apparently testing, etc on message boards. I am amazed though at how many approach me at meets and say they agree with me, or that they don't agree with me and why. From each interaction I learn. These communities online can help us to learn, make us better coaches, etc. I try to improve each year as a coach and know I am far from perfect. To call me a bully who is exercising his power over you or anyone else is just false and to me is you guys being whiners.

I do disagree with you that people asking you, as a man, to stand behind your very strong opinions with your name is not bullying in any way shape or form. You are not forced to come on these boards. Nobody here has any power over you or your situation. There is no lawsuit material here. Stop being a whiner! ;)

Doug

ThreeTrees
05-16-2013, 09:20 AM
Well, now you're just being disingenuous. When I shared with you some personal details earlier this year I never told you what really drove them. You simply assumed they were sports related because I'm on this board. They weren't. You called me the crazy sports parent and threw them back in my face to tease them out. I think everyone can see what just happened. You knew enough details to know that wasn't the case. That’s reprehensible in my opinion.

And if you don’t understand the rape story above, just read it a few more times. It’ll click.

Tony DiMarco
05-16-2013, 09:27 AM
ThreeTrees... Can I call you Three since you call me by my first name? Thanks!

Three, you wanted Stats...here you go

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/highschool-prep-rally/study-shows-school-sports-improve-grades-while-more-221934443.html

http://www.flashwest.com/lists/Orange%20County%202013.pdf

http://www.flashwest.com/lists/Riverside%202013.pdf

I also found an article a while back that I can't currently locate that discussed how the 1600m time at the state meet has significantly dropped over the past decade.

If you want more data... go to www.athletic.net and click on various schools names and as Coach Hernandez stated check the improvement of various programs. I think you might even shock yourself to find out that we aren’t all bad at what we do!

Still want more... That will take me a little longer as this is not my day job!

As far as coaches... Do you really want another long response? The list would be extremely long as the criteria I would use to create the list would not be based on performances of athletes or who can coach a pole vaulter, miler, build the leaning tower of Pisa, balance chain saws and change a wet diaper with both hands tied behind their back. Wait... I just got the herd cat’s thing... hilarious!

Look, this is getting old fast so let’s end this debate with this. CIF has problems (we see them too and if you know anything about the coaches alliance we have tried and made some positive changes over the past years to improve their policies). Not every school in California has a qualified coach coaching. Coaching like teaching is devalued by our government and thus most individuals would rather not coach for the peanuts they receive and others would rather privately coach to avoid the red tape of dealing with public schools, CIF and the current laws that keep coaches from making the type of money they are worth. Some schools are lucky if they can get anyone to come out for a year and coach a program only to go through the same problem the following year.

You attack us yet you should be thanking us for doing the job we do! You (and by you I mean as you stated the parents you represent) should thank us for not only coaching for peanuts, but also for taking time away from our families to attend coaching clinics, read up on the latest training ideas and overall caring about EVERY child who walks through our door! Would a private coach do that? NO WAY!

The system has flaws, boy do I agree with you there… but we are not the problem and what upsets us all is your attack upon us! We are the ones in the trenches defending the townspeople and you are the townsperson who is questioning the manner in which we protect you which is your right… but what you should be doing is thanking us for defending you and directing your attack upon the very structure that created the conflict we are defending you from… You see, the more parents attack the people who care about their children the more we realize that defending the town is not worth the peanuts we get… when we stop defending the town… well then you will be left with townspeople complaining but no one left to complain too…

Believe it or not I understand you…Scary I know! My problem with you is that you are attacking the people who care because the people who don’t wouldn’t be on this site to begin with! So show us respect and we will gladly show you some in return.

Thank you.

PS I will not apologize for ALL of us but I will apologize for those who shouldn’t be coaching. We also feel bad for those athletes which is why WE coach so that there are less who have to suffer.

Keith Chann
05-16-2013, 09:31 AM
There you go again.

only to emphasize that sports are a vehicle for college\university admissions and nothing more unless the kid is in the league of Cain, Hasay, Baxter, Webb, Ryun, etc.


This is truely sad if it is what you believe. SO much more comes into focus after reading this statement from you.

Doug Soles
05-16-2013, 09:42 AM
Well, now you're just being disingenuous. When I shared with you some personal details earlier this year I never told you what really drove them. You simply assumed they were sports related because I'm on this board. They weren't. You called me the crazy sports parent and threw them back in my face to tease them out. I think everyone can see what just happened. You knew enough details to know that wasn't the case. That’s reprehensible in my opinion.

And if you don’t understand the rape story above, just read it a few more times. It’ll click.

YOU shared SOME details. I have no power over you. I am not bullying you or your situation. I didn't make the decisions that effected your child or for you to share a couple of them with me. Like Tony said, we know the system isn't perfect but we do what we can while inside of it. You guys want to act like we are mean power hungry people out to crush the masses, which is about as far from the truth as possible. We have great parents here and I do everything I can to have a good relationship with them. At the end of the day I am a coach in charge of a team. I have to make decisions. What happens when I make a decision you don't like as a parent on my team? Go to the AD? Bad mouth me to everyone you meet? Undermine me with private coaching? The truth is very few decisions I make will make everyone happy, but I still have to make those decisions for my programs. Why else was I hired? I can't even imagine most sports without a coach. To hire us to do a job and then call us bullies for doing that job is ridiculous.

Yes, I still have no idea where you are going with the rape thing...just weird. Seriously.

Tony, I didn't realize how much I missed old Joe Z until today! Haha! :)

Doug

ThreeTrees
05-16-2013, 10:09 AM
ThreeTrees... Can I call you Three since you call me by my first name? Thanks!

You attack us yet you should be thanking us for doing the job we do! You (and by you I mean as you stated the parents you represent) should thank us for not only coaching for peanuts, but also for taking time away from our families to attend coaching clinics, read up on the latest training ideas and overall caring about EVERY child who walks through our door! Would a private coach do that? NO WAY!

The system has flaws, boy do I agree with you there… but we are not the problem and what upsets us all is your attack upon us! We are the ones in the trenches defending the townspeople and you are the townsperson who is questioning the manner in which we protect you which is your right… but what you should be doing is thanking us for defending you and directing your attack upon the very structure that created the conflict we are defending you from… You see, the more parents attack the people who care about their children the more we realize that defending the town is not worth the peanuts we get… when we stop defending the town… well then you will be left with townspeople complaining but no one left to complain too…

Believe it or not I understand you…Scary I know! My problem with you is that you are attacking the people who care because the people who don’t wouldn’t be on this site to begin with! So show us respect and we will gladly show you some in return.

Ok, skip the stats. Tony, you’re smart. But you just threw a bunch of stats against the wall to see what would stick. You’re also better than that. You don’t really have anything. I couldn’t find anything if I wanted to play devil’s advocate, because there isn’t anything out there. Any attempts to argue now that the public school system is improving just defeats your credibility. Also, if you want to look at anything that resembles real stats, and also if you just like a good read, go pick up More Fire: How to Run the Kenyan Way by Toby Tanser. It shows just how far the American distance runners have fallen over the last 30 years. There are other studies out there. Yes, Salazar is doing tremendous things with Rupp and Farah. And if every high school had an underwater treadmill they’d all be great too.

You may think I’m crazy, but I truly believe that the rise of the Kenyans and Ethiopians over the U.S. has a lot to do with the rise of the CIF. I realize just how crazy that may sound, but I would love for someone to do an analysis. The reason I say this. I’ve watched so many coaches hold so many kids back over the last 20 years that I realize it’s systemic. The evidence that the public schools are holding the kids back on the academics is fairly undeniable now. Do you really believe that there is some special reason that sports is different? If so, you could mint that and make a make a billion, because you have the recipe for fixing the public schools.

And you really don’t know me. I’m a huge supporter of the public school system. My kids all went through public schools. But I also recognize so many areas where we fail the kids. And one of the big ones, at least for the elite kids (academics and athletics alike) is that schools limit choice and hold the kids back.

I’ll stop commenting on these boards when you and your colleagues stop adopting stupid transfer restrictions. I’ll become a bigger supporter when you eliminate recruiting restrictions.

I'm out. I'll see you next when there's another one of these threads. Give it some more thought over the next few months. I'm sure the recruiting issue will be bubbling up at some point.

cush
05-16-2013, 10:13 AM
wow, talk about rambling non-sequiturs...

i don't know doug that well, though we've had lengthy discussions about training, etc., but his posting on this message board is the antithesis of an "ivory tower" mentality.

while we've all gotten defensive and resorted to knee jerk reactions, i would argue most on this board do so as evidence that they DO care for the kids they're mentoring. that's just my opinion; clearly, threetrees, you do not share that opinion.

on the subject of opinions, i'll make another inappropriate non-sequitur: earlier, threetrees exhibited the bottom-line/results-only-oriented mentality by which our world is often judged (sometimes accurately, sometimes inaccurately); if i were to use the same mentality that he used on one of my colleagues and his athletes' times, i suppose i could judge--and blame--threetrees only by the "results" of his child, but how inappropriate would THAT be? clearly there's more to the story, such as the child's disability, as well as a host of other potential circumstance which we are not privy to. so, threetrees, maybe you should cut us public school employees some slack. i'll cut you some slack for being a crazy parent who has his kid's best interest at heart (like most of the coaches he's criticizing). but, i still believe you are crazy. i'm not joking.

finally, after criticizing another colleague for his rambling, threetrees somehow comes up with rape? all i can say is "wow."

rnrdad
05-16-2013, 10:22 AM
Tony,

I do not know you, but will use your first name if you don't mind.

Your last post was the best post in this thread so far, in my opinion.

It was balanced and positive, except for a couple of points I would like to address.

I, and I believe, most parents really do truly appreciate what most of you coaches do for our kids. We know the sacrifice and we see the honest passion to help and serve. We really do not expect our individual kids to set records, just improve and learn life lessons, while (hopefully) getting into college. Many , many of you help our kids do exactly that and we thank you, every day by bringing them back. Maybe we should say it a little more often.

I repeat, most parents really do appreciate you.

What I, and the parents I know, do not appreciate is the attitude that parents are "crazy, dumb, gullible, stupid" or that the coach cannot be questioned and any idea the parents have about extra for their kids is stupid. When we have a coach like that, no mater how accomplished his team is, it is very diffcult to talk to him or her when we know what he or she thinks of us.Yet, again, those that can afford it can get exactly that kind of help in music, academics, and yes even sports. And the coach benefits, as he or she should.

Other than a select few, me, three trees, some high school coaches that have posted here admit it might help, all you need is honest communication.

Yes times are improving. Thank goodness. And yes you coaches are a primary reason for that.

In my own little opinion the less is more, brand name shoes or clothes marketed for the adult runner (NIKE, etc) was a primary culprit in the decline of Amercian running on the world stage. You coahes are brining us back, and we truly appreciate it.

For Keith Chann:

Your statement "truly sad... comes into focus".

I know you know that most high school runners will not get money from colleges to run on their teams. I know you know that most High School runners will not run in the Olympics. I know you know that most high school runners will not earn a living as a pro runner.

I know you know that sports, like drama, music, debate, 4H, can be the third leg, extra curricular activity that just might make the difference in getting into a particular college assuming grades and SAT are the same.

I know you know that some atlhetes get into a college, but get no money, because the college coach has a few spots they can use.

We parents know this. So yes, for most of us, sports are a vehicle for college admittance, as part of the three things needed: Grades, SAT, Extra Curricular, not the end all and be all.

I do not, and I think most parents do not, want my kids to be the minimum wage earning adult forever talking about that the race - you know the highlight of their life? No I see, and maybe others see high school as time to learn, enjoy, work, and use to get into college.

Maybe your comment means that you think High School Sports is all that matters and that you are more important than classroom work. I don't think you believe that, so I guess you were just being superior and mean?

Brian Shapiro
05-16-2013, 10:40 AM
I’ll stop commenting on these boards when you and your colleagues stop adopting stupid transfer restrictions. I’ll become a bigger supporter when you eliminate recruiting restrictions.




The CIF has actually loosened it's restrictions in these areas in the last two to three years. Previously a varsity athlete had to miss an entire year of competition following a transfer without a change of address. Now it's only a 30 day sit out period. The elimination of the "Association Rule" has made it easier for club and private coaches to work with athletes year-round and effectively recruit pre-high school kids in to their programs. The "Undue Influence Rule" still remains.

Keith Chann
05-16-2013, 10:41 AM
For Keith Chann:

Your statement "truly sad... comes into focus".

I know you know that most high school runners will not get money from colleges to run on their teams. I know you know that most High School runners will not run in the Olympics. I know you know that most high school runners will not earn a living as a pro runner.

I know you know that sports, like drama, music, debate, 4H, can be the third leg, extra curricular activity that just might make the difference in getting into a particular college assuming grades and SAT are the same.

I know you know that some atlhetes get into a college, but get no money, because the college coach has a few spots they can use.

We parents know this. So yes, for most of us, sports are a vehicle for college admittance, as part of the three things needed: Grades, SAT, Extra Curricular, not the end all and be all.

I do not, and I think most parents do not, want my kids to be the minimum wage earning adult forever talking about that the race - you know the highlight of their life? No I see, and maybe others see high school as time to learn, enjoy, work, and use to get into college.

Maybe your comment means that you think High School Sports is all that matters and that you are more important than classroom work. I don't think you believe that, so I guess you were just being superior and mean?

Wow, what a singular focus to try to make all of us coaches look bad. I find it sad that you think sports is only a way to boost your college application.

Let's not forget the goal setting aspect, the commitment, the decision making, the FUN, the teamwork, the hard work, the wins and losses, the friendships made, the intensity, the personal records, the thrills, the total deflations, getting back up and trying your best. I could go on and on and on.

High school sports are so much more than just something to write on a college application so that a kid can have a better shot at getting in. Many, perhaps most, of the kids that I coach will never go to college. It is just a reality in the community in which I teach (I know because they don't go to college I have failed them and I am truely evil for not getting all of my kids Division 1 scholarships). I guess that means my kids are just wasting their time being on the team!

I am far from thinking that high school sports is all that matters. You know almost nothing about me except a name so do not try to assume that I don't care or that I somehow feel superior. The kids I coach do not come from privilage, they can barely afford to have running shoes. High school sports gets them off the streets and gives them some personal satisfaction, motivation to stay in school, teammates, friend, leadership, and FUN. Do not belittle their experiences just because they are not using sports as a "vehicle for college\university admissions and nothing more!"

rnrdad
05-16-2013, 11:22 AM
Wow, what a singular focus to try to make all of us coaches look bad. I find it sad that you think sports is only a way to boost your college application.

Let's not forget the goal setting aspect, the commitment, the decision making, the FUN, the teamwork, the hard work, the wins and losses, the friendships made, the intensity, the personal records, the thrills, the total deflations, getting back up and trying your best. I could go on and on and on.

High school sports are so much more than just something to write on a college application so that a kid can have a better shot at getting in. Many, perhaps most, of the kids that I coach will never go to college. It is just a reality in the community in which I teach (I know because they don't go to college I have failed them and I am truely evil for not getting all of my kids Division 1 scholarships). I guess that means my kids are just wasting their time being on the team!

I am far from thinking that high school sports is all that matters. You know almost nothing about me except a name so do not try to assume that I don't care or that I somehow feel superior. The kids I coach do not come from privilage, they can barely afford to have running shoes. High school sports gets them off the streets and gives them some personal satisfaction, motivation to stay in school, teammates, friend, leadership, and FUN. Do not belittle their experiences just because they are not using sports as a "vehicle for college\university admissions and nothing more!"

Mr. Chann,
I want to believe you are having a bad day.

You are completely ignoring the rest of my post. What part of "we truly appreciate what you guys do" are you missing or ignoring?

I, too, come from poverty. I do not say that for the violins to start, but even my poor poverty stricken parents (We were the no shoes kids) wanted us to go to college. Guess what, my siblings and I did. I know, as well as anyone, that cannot always be the case. For some of us sports helped, for some of us it was the math club, and for the brainiac (actually he studied a lot more than us) it was superior grades, Astounding SAT, and letters. Yes we were the typical large family of our generation.

Where do you get I am disrespecting your kids by isolating one line? I bet even the poor parents would like their kids to go to college, as I am sure you would. I remember seeing where a good number of your athletes are going to college.

From where I come from, I could easily read your response as denigrating poor people as it seems to say that poor folks can't go to college. I KNOW THAT IS NOT TRUE OF YOU.

Yes, yes, yes all the other parts of sports are very important. No one disputes that, not even me.

Yes, not going to college does not make you any less a person. In fact, in my opinion this country is leaving the "everyone who has earned it can go college" philosophy and going back to "college is only for those who can afford it (ELITE)" mentality. I detest that, by the way. Yes, not going to college does not make you less of a person, but it sure can impact your future living standard. Since I come from a "community" much like you describe yours, I bet there are some who think college is the best way out.

I am NOT accussing you or anyone else of failure or not caring. Show me where I said that.

I do not know how many times I have to compliment you coaches before you see it.

And I stand by my belief that most parents, even the poor ones, would really like to see their kids graduate from college. And that does not denigrate you or High School Sports.

ThreeTrees
05-16-2013, 11:26 AM
but, i still believe you are crazy. i'm not joking.


Thanks Cush, I feel better now. Originally I was just a “crazy, venom-spewing, unhappy, unsatisfied and unfulfilled, egotistical, selfish parent.” But now I'm only "crazy." Well, I got that going for me.

You know, one man’s insanity is another man’s genius.

BTW - I've said my peace. I'll let mrdad or whoever else wants to carry on the charge. i'm just lurking now for the "crazy" gems.

rnrdad
05-16-2013, 11:38 AM
Also, Coach Chann,

I thought I made it clear that for most, running was the extra to help get into college. I know I said I told all my kids that I was not training them to run for scholarships in college, just to use to help get into college. NOT for the scholarship. Please, do not beat yourself up, or acccuse me of saying you are a failure for not getting everyone of your kids a Division One scholarship.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

Tony DiMarco
05-16-2013, 11:56 AM
Three's you didn't click on my links??? If you had you would have noticed all of the recent marks on the all time list for the OC and Riverside? I will assume you did look but didn't care to comment on that. The other link speaks for itself but I guess I'm wrong?

ThreeTrees
05-16-2013, 12:11 PM
Three's you didn't click on my links??? If you had you would have noticed all of the recent marks on the all time list for the OC and Riverside? I will assume you did look but didn't care to comment on that. The other link speaks for itself but I guess I'm wrong?

Please Tony. You want stats. Brother O'Connell plants trees at St. Pat's for his Olympic gold medalists. He practically has an orchard now. He had a 4xMile team that all ran under sub 4:00. That's real. And we could beat them 40 years ago. Your stats are really meaningless. Just check out word juniors if you want to see how well we do against the international competition now. Can you imagine what Gebrehiwet or Dibaba would do against our state finalists?

But you know what would be a really interesting stat. How many kids were denied athletic participation last year and the reason for each denial. I would love to know how many thought the coach was the problem. I would love to compare that to the transfers for academic reasons to see if we have a real issue with sports. Personally, I think CIF should disclose far more than it is so we really know what's happening. Hey, maybe the Sacramento Bee could do an article and use FOIA to obtain the information. Years ago under the Chandlers I would have suggested the Times do the investigation, but I think we all know how the high school beat would cover that story now.

But that would actually be interesting.

Tony DiMarco
05-16-2013, 12:50 PM
Wait...you are saying it's our fault that the rest of the worlds youth are better than us? Are you serious? Please take your meds!!!! Kenya has the amount of sports we offer? NO. Nor does any of the countries in Africa or for that matter Europe! Are you serious? Even if ALL of the talented kids walked through my door you're telling me that their parents would allow me to train them the way the rest of the world trains their youth? Are you kidding? If my kids ran the mileage I know they need to compete internationally I would be hog tied to a railroad and left for dead... Are you kidding me?

Again, I don't agree with CIF on many things but at some point you have to come to grips with the fact that we are not the problem! We of course I mean the coaches who give a damn and work our tales off to help our athletes excel!

My stats don't workfor you? Really? If we were doing the terrible job you state we are, then why are sooo many of the top marks on those list from the last decade? WHY????

One last time... you are preaching to the wrong group! We are not the enemy... we did not create the rules or CIF...we are the ones who everyday try to do our very best despite CIF and the rules to help our athletes!

rnrdad
05-16-2013, 12:51 PM
Please Tony. You want stats. Brother O'Connell plants trees at St. Pat's for his Olympic gold medalists. He practically has an orchard now. He had a 4xMile team that all ran under sub 4:00. That's real. And we could beat them 40 years ago. Your stats are really meaningless. Just check out word juniors if you want to see how well we do against the international competition now. Can you imagine what Gebrehiwet or Dibaba would do against our state finalists?

But you know what would be a really interesting stat. How many kids were denied athletic participation last year and the reason for each denial. I would love to know how many thought the coach was the problem. I would love to compare that to the transfers for academic reasons to see if we have a real issue with sports. Personally, I think CIF should disclose far more than it is so we really know what's happening. Hey, maybe the Sacramento Bee could do an article and use FOIA to obtain the information. Years ago under the Chandlers I would have suggested the Times do the investigation, but I think we all know how the high school beat would cover that story now.

But that would actually be interesting.

Three Trees,

Glad to see you are still around.

I want to expand a part of one of my earleir posts.

But FIRST, I am not attacking, denigrating, disrespecting any Coach, public or private.

I recall going to an LA84 clinic, and a coach that I think may have been a former coach from HART, had a board that showed that the slower times from MT SAC were faster than the faster times at Mt. SAC XC during two periods of time. As he said, even accounting for the discussion about course changes he was arguing that what this showed was a parallel to the decline of distance running in the US. His point was that it also coincided with the advent of the adult running phase of america coinciding with the rise of the "SHOE Companies" and the adult running magazines. He argued that in order to get more consumers, the shoe companies understood they needed to get more adults running\jogging and they understood that an adult who has not really been training could not, or would not train or run like the Jim Ryuns, or even top High School runners.

Lo and behold, the less is more and you just have to have the right shoes and clothes movement was born. Through media, keeping up with the Jonese's, etc. Workouts declined, and so did times. Add to this the published "scientific" articles about the better way to run and why the new high heeled shoes were just so much better, and the faster easier way achieve results, and the demise began.

Again, no ones fault, as why not believe it?

He also pointed out the increase in injuries, but hey that spawned more doctors, therapists, wraps, etc.

Finally he showed how times were getting fast again, and he connected that to Coaches having their athletes work a little more again, shoes getting a little flatter, etc.

I had not thought about this until I heard his presentation. Since then, I have read, seen, and heard what I think supported his presentation.

For example, it was discovered that the Kenyans, and thier progeny, do a lot of running, even without fancy shoes and gizmos.

I have heard at subsequent LA 84 cliniucs coaches talk about the increased work load and better results.

And yes, American times are improving and we are starting to be at or near the top, again.

High School times are getting pretty darn fast.

Again I am not attacking, blaming, criticizing any coach anywhere and I am not claiming to be an expert.

ThreeTrees
05-16-2013, 01:14 PM
Wait...you are saying it's our fault that the rest of the worlds youth are better than us?

... we did not create the rules or CIF...we are the ones who everyday try to do our very best despite CIF and the rules to help our athletes!

I think my mantra has been consistent from the outset some 8 months ago.

It’s your fault that the structural impediments now exist that impedes the athletes from reaching their potential. It’s your fault that athletes are denied participation because they seek a better opportunity. It’s your fault that coaches and athletes are penalized for trying to educate the kids on the opportunities available so they can choose the right school. And it's absolutely your fault that coaches like the one above can’t work (or refuses to work) with outside private coaches, and the kids are then forced to transfer and/or pay huge sums to a private school.

The CIF is your union, not mine. You did in fact create it, and you do in fact create the rules. I didn’t vote for the transfer restrictions. If it was up to parents, they’d be gone tomorrow. And you and your brethren will be revisiting the recruiting rules in the not too distant future. You and your brethren vote them in, and I don’t mean you specifically. I mean coaches and administrators. But the CIF represents you and every other coach on this board.

Ed Winczowski
05-16-2013, 01:50 PM
Please Tony. You want stats. Brother O'Connell plants trees at St. Pat's for his Olympic gold medalists. He practically has an orchard now. He had a 4xMile team that all ran under sub 4:00. That's real. And we could beat them 40 years ago. Your stats are really meaningless. Just check out word juniors if you want to see how well we do against the international competition now. Can you imagine what Gebrehiwet or Dibaba would do against our state finalists?

But you know what would be a really interesting stat. How many kids were denied athletic participation last year and the reason for each denial. I would love to know how many thought the coach was the problem. I would love to compare that to the transfers for academic reasons to see if we have a real issue with sports. Personally, I think CIF should disclose far more than it is so we really know what's happening. Hey, maybe the Sacramento Bee could do an article and use FOIA to obtain the information. Years ago under the Chandlers I would have suggested the Times do the investigation, but I think we all know how the high school beat would cover that story now.

But that would actually be interesting.

This is the best thread on here...well...since the transfer one last fall and Trees, I gotta hand it to you, you know how to maintain interest. You do make some interesting comments.

Going back to page one, I don't think there would be many people in the CIF that would mind or prevent the private schools from leaving the CIF. Personally I think it's a wonderful idea. I would drink to that.

Now the stats on how many kids were denied athletic eligibility. Would this include students that fell below a 2.0? Because from your broad based view of how things should be, I'm assuming include them. As far as being held out because of transfers, etc., do you really think it's that many? Even in the Golden State that is so geographically large and population dense in certain areas? Have you ever thought that many coaches get held back from helping their athletes more than they would like? I would like to see those survey results.

Now onto this rape idea. Why was that so significant in your argument? People could interpret that in different ways and honestly not a very good idea to bring up unless you were being very thorough with your explanation. I do not know why you would not explain it, especially since you sound like you have vast knowledge about the female mind. Ideas do get twisted and expanded on in communities and this is a community board. I honestly do think I know what you meant by it and if I didn't, I could argue that I did. You are the one that left the idea open ended and it was just another passive agressive remark at Doug. Why even bring this up and limit rape to just college? Your 1 in 4 could very well be right. But what would the stats be on rape if we allowed a lawless, private coach industry to infiltrate high school sports? Let's start keep those numbers TODAY. I have a feeling we would all be extremely disgusted.

rnrdad
05-16-2013, 02:40 PM
[QUOTE=Ed Winczowski;1158]This is the best thread on here...well...since the transfer one last fall and Trees, I gotta hand it to you, you know how to maintain interest. You do make some interesting comments.

Going back to page one, I don't think there would be many people in the CIF that would mind or prevent the private schools from leaving the CIF. Personally I think it's a wonderful idea. I would drink to that.


I thought it was half way there with the new Catholic League or division in the Southern Section or whatever it is. The publics get them out of their hair and they get to beat up on each other? That leaves the privileged Public Schools to dominate. At least until State wide competition, anyway.

Track Dude
05-16-2013, 03:04 PM
If it wasn't for Private Coaching and their Winter and Summer Track Club, my girls would not be competing at the NCAA DI level today--pure and simple. The best part of their college experience is being on the Track (and Cross Country) teams. Being on the team is a full time job in addition to being a student--which is also a full time job. One of them would not be a two-time NCAA All American or gone to the Olympic Trials as a 19 year old, if it hadn't have been for her private and club coaches--not the High School T&F/XC coaches. Fortunately, we were able to work out the private coach and off-season Track Club thing with the High School, but it was sure ugly for four long years. The vast majority of girls who compete with my girls today in the NCAA today are "Track Club Girls" who had private coaching. Some ran "unattached" in the USATF and AAU JO's since they were coached by their parents. I will make a list at some point. It's like a JO reunion of Track Club girls at the NCAAs every year. Now, I had a great HS coach in the '70's and went to a parochial HS in LA. We were CIF-SS 1A Champs, twice. Our coach taught Chip Benson the TJ when that was added as a HS event and got Chip into UCLA where he is still is on the Top Ten List. He was my History Teacher and knew every event--shot put to pole vault--and took us to the Mt. SAC clinics over the summer. We went to the Watts Summer Games. We ran indoor at the Times and Sunkist Invitationals--during basketball and soccer season, no less. He's 80 and I still keep in touch with him. He follows my girls and even remembers my HS marks and events. Looking around, those kind of HS coaches are few a far between these days. They do exist, though. I won't put every HS coach in the same box, if you don't put every private or club coach in the same box. <grin>

Chip Benson.... Wow, is that ever a name from the past!!!
One of the All-Time great TJ'ers in Pac-10 history next to Clarence Taylor, Dokie Williams, and Willie Banks.
I really enjoyed reading your post. Glad to hear that your girls are enjoying their NCAA D-1 experience!
:)

Ed Winczowski
05-16-2013, 03:07 PM
[QUOTE=Ed Winczowski;1158]This is the best thread on here...well...since the transfer one last fall and Trees, I gotta hand it to you, you know how to maintain interest. You do make some interesting comments.

Going back to page one, I don't think there would be many people in the CIF that would mind or prevent the private schools from leaving the CIF. Personally I think it's a wonderful idea. I would drink to that.


I thought it was half way there with the new Catholic League or division in the Southern Section or whatever it is. The publics get them out of their hair and they get to beat up on each other? That leaves the privileged Public Schools to dominate. At least until State wide competition, anyway.

This privileged public school coach whom does not even have access to an ice machine (so you could imagine what else I do not have) still thinks it sounds like a good idea.

Martin Pennell
05-16-2013, 04:18 PM
Please Tony. You want stats. Brother O'Connell plants trees at St. Pat's for his Olympic gold medalists. He practically has an orchard now. He had a 4xMile team that all ran under sub 4:00. That's real. And we could beat them 40 years ago. Your stats are really meaningless. Just check out word juniors if you want to see how well we do against the international competition now. Can you imagine what Gebrehiwet or Dibaba would do against our state finalists?

Man, you have no basis of reality. We NEVER beat them, we NEVER will either. It is not coaching, it is genetics. They (East Africans) are superior, plain and simple. I won't even go into sociological, economical or environmental factors unless someone is looking to get crushed in a debate on here. There are anomalies, Rupp had his best race on the right day but I still wouldn't rank him Top 6 in the world and a few years back Craig Mottram was doing some great things but as whole we are not engineered the way they are. I heard a crazy rant a few years back at the USATF convention by Brooks Johnson, he had the same ridiculous thoughts. We have the technology, we have the coaching, we have the facilities... we should have the medals. Western caucasians vs. East Africans is essentially like Ireland vs. Mexico in a tanning contest. Now we totally missed the 80's and 90's and now things are really moving in the right direction. We have made tremendous strides on the international level and have gained much ground and we will hopefully continue to gain, but this isn't NFL, NBA or NHL and we will NEVER dominate. Don't blame CIF, don't blame Nike, don't blame the athletes... blame your double helix.

rnrdad
05-16-2013, 04:39 PM
[QUOTE=rnrdad;1159]

This privileged public school coach whom does not even have access to an ice machine (so you could imagine what else I do not have) still thinks it sounds like a good idea.

Now, now please don't be one of those sensitive ones that think everything is an attack on you even if you have to take things out of context to prove it.

I do not know where you coach or who you are so I cannot be attacking you and am not.

As I have said over and over and over and over again I believe most coaches are very good people doing awesome work.

I have also said what I find irritating is the few who have more than most, and always do very well,and who probably have ice machines who complain and blame others.

Unfortunately, in today's world a large number of schools and their coaches have to make do and are not in what I was referencing as the privileged ones.

Actually in my lame way, I was trying to be somewhat funny. So sorry it fell flat.

Whitelightning
05-16-2013, 04:43 PM
Oh man I have to admit that I am loving this thread, it is good to see people posting again! It certainly reminds me of the good old days, though this time it's the coaches throwing down. I figured that I should give back and give my own take on this situation. For me, private coaching has never been an issue, I'm not sure it is as prevalent up here in norcal as it is in socal. Also it could be because at the school I went to/coached at (Campolindo) we have a great coaching staff that can cover all of the events, something I know is not the norm because of the difficulty. However, these arbitrary criteria for "elite" hs marks is just silly to me. Please find me private coach that has consistently taken 10 foot pole vaulters and turned them into 17 foot pool vaulters. Yeah, having a coach that can coach kids to elite marks in every event is unlikely, but so is even having kids with the talent to run a 4:10, and vault 17 feet and high jump 7 feet who all go to the same school. The talent pool at a school is only so big, and to expect coaches, even the best coaches to be able to take average kids and turn them into superstars every year is asking too much. For example, the pole vault coach at Campolindo has coached a 17-08 vaulter in the past, (so you know he is elite lol) and he has yet to have another one since. Why is that? BECAUSE FINDING KIDS WITH ENOUGH TALENT AND ABILITY LIKE THAT IS EXTREMELY DIFFICULT. Just because a coach hasn’t coached amazing athletes in every event doesn’t mean it is their fault and that they are not a competent coach. Yes there are plenty of bad coaches out there, and the way to fix that is to encourage them to go to clinic and learn more, not put them down.

What Doug and others have rightly pointed out is that private coaches come along after the athlete has had success and try to snap them up, and this can cause some serious issues if something cannot be worked out. Yes, it is true that there are plenty of coaches who are not very good and hold some athletes back, but why does that mean that people on here get blamed for that? Any private coach who actually knows what they are doing would have no problem talking with a high school coach and working out a training plan that will benefit the athlete.

Also, the whole elite athletes doing special workouts is just ridiculous, there are no "special workouts", it's all about the fundamentals, doing some workout is not going to automatically make you elite or improve if you are already elite. We had a 4:11 miler last year, and he did not do any special workouts, just a steady progression of what he had been doing the previous 3 seasons and he was able to put it all together. It is about consistency and gradual progression, ultimately that is what produces good results. Private coaches can be helpful and can make a difference, but they can also just as easily ruin team dynamics and other problems. I believe the original point of Doug's post was to get a discussion started on private coaches wherein people could voice their concerns from both sides, NOT bash each other with demeaning personal attacks, that is what I would expect from 14 year old trolls on letsrun. But as it stands I have learned a great deal from all of you and I thank you for your contributions, certainly gave someone like me (I'm 22 btw) a lot to think about!

Andy Lindquist
Campolindo hs
Soon to be USATF level 2 coach in distances and current UC Berkeley student :)

rnrdad
05-16-2013, 04:45 PM
Man, you have no basis of reality. We NEVER beat them, we NEVER will either. It is not coaching, it is genetics. They (East Africans) are superior, plain and simple. I won't even go into sociological, economical or environmental factors unless someone is looking to get crushed in a debate on here. There are anomalies, Rupp had his best race on the right day but I still wouldn't rank him Top 6 in the world and a few years back Craig Mottram was doing some great things but as whole we are not engineered the way they are. I heard a crazy rant a few years back at the USATF convention by Brooks Johnson, he had the same ridiculous thoughts. We have the technology, we have the coaching, we have the facilities... we should have the medals. Western caucasians vs. East Africans is essentially like Ireland vs. Mexico in a tanning contest. Now we totally missed the 80's and 90's and now things are really moving in the right direction. We have made tremendous strides on the international level and have gained much ground and we will hopefully continue to gain, but this isn't NFL, NBA or NHL and we will NEVER dominate. Don't blame CIF, don't blame Nike, don't blame the athletes... blame your double helix.

Oh man. Now it is my turn to say I cannot believe what you just wrote. GENETICS? GENETICS? Naturally superior? Please don't take the last step and say it is racial. The other side of that is to say some are genetically superior in mental capacity.

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE tell me I am way off base and that I really am stupid and read this wrong. PLEASE.

Caucasians vs East Africans is like a tanning contest between Mexico and Ireland?

Blame your double helix?

You are saying that despite our obvious superiority race makes the difference?

You said this would upset some people. It did. It upset me and I hope a lot of other people.

I can't wait to see who comes to your defense and how they defend you on this one.

Martin Pennell
05-16-2013, 05:14 PM
Oh man. Now it is my turn to say I cannot believe what you just wrote. GENETICS? GENETICS? Naturally superior? Please don't take the last step and say it is racial. The other side of that is to say some are genetically superior in mental capacity.

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE tell me I am way off base and that I really am stupid and read this wrong. PLEASE.

Well of course it isn't racial... otherwise you would see distance runners from Jamaica, Trinidad & Tobago and Nigeria. It is genetic though. So much so that it isn't even all of Kenya that is fast, primarily they come from one tribe in Eldoeret. Different genetic groups have different characteristics. Take any average 5 kids from Kansas and have them wrestle any 5 kids from Samoa. Then have them go wrestle some Somalians. Then have all three of those groups race 3 miles. How do you think the results will turn out? Nothing is 100% or absolute but trends are pretty consistent. Why is it that when I go to Copenhagen I feel short or when I'm down in Peru I feel quite tall? Genetics.

Track Dude
05-16-2013, 06:06 PM
For me, private coaching has never been an issue, I'm not sure it is as prevalent up here in norcal as it is in socal. Also it could be because at the school I went to/coached at (Campolindo) we have a great coaching staff that can cover all of the events, something I know is not the norm because of the difficulty.

However, these arbitrary criteria for "elite" hs marks is just silly to me. Please find me private coach that has consistently taken 10 foot pole vaulters and turned them into 17 foot pool vaulters. Yeah, having a coach that can coach kids to elite marks in every event is unlikely, but so is even having kids with the talent to run a 4:10, and vault 17 feet and high jump 7 feet who all go to the same school. The talent pool at a school is only so big, and to expect coaches, even the best coaches to be able to take average kids and turn them into superstars every year is asking too much. For example, the pole vault coach at Campolindo has coached a 17-08 vaulter in the past, (so you know he is elite lol) and he has yet to have another one since. Why is that? BECAUSE FINDING KIDS WITH ENOUGH TALENT AND ABILITY LIKE THAT IS EXTREMELY DIFFICULT. Just because a coach hasn’t coached amazing athletes in every event doesn’t mean it is their fault and that they are not a competent coach. Yes there are plenty of bad coaches out there, and the way to fix that is to encourage them to go to clinic and learn more, not put them down.

What Doug and others have rightly pointed out is that private coaches come along after the athlete has had success and try to snap them up, and this can cause some serious issues if something cannot be worked out. Yes, it is true that there are plenty of coaches who are not very good and hold some athletes back, but why does that mean that people on here get blamed for that? Any private coach who actually knows what they are doing would have no problem talking with a high school coach and working out a training plan that will benefit the athlete.

Also, the whole elite athletes doing special workouts is just ridiculous, there are no "special workouts", it's all about the fundamentals, doing some workout is not going to automatically make you elite or improve if you are already elite. We had a 4:11 miler last year, and he did not do any special workouts, just a steady progression of what he had been doing the previous 3 seasons and he was able to put it all together. It is about consistency and gradual progression, ultimately that is what produces good results. Private coaches can be helpful and can make a difference, but they can also just as easily ruin team dynamics and other problems.

Andy Lindquist
Campolindo hs
Soon to be USATF level 2 coach in distances and current UC Berkeley student :)

Andy, while you may not have had an issue with Private Coaches I would imagine that there are several head coaches in the DFAL and NCS that have managed their programs with an "iron-fist" and make a priority of keeping everything under their CONTROL. In fact, without naming any names I am quite certain of it. In my opinion, not allowing athletes to be trained by a Private Coach is one way of exerting such control. Personally, I do not believe that this is fair to an athlete that is involved in one of the more technical field events, such as discus, shot-put, high jump, pole vault, etc.

On another note, you asked what private pole vault coach has taken mediocre vaulters and turned them into elite vaulters?

UCLA 5-Time "All-American" Scott Slover and his Dad Bob have done so in a most consistent manner out of Los Gatos. And I am not even talking about gifted athletes such as former CIF State Champions like Tori Anthony or Taylore Jaques. Their record of developing young athletes into Winners is unparalleled, not too mention getting these young athletes into the D-1 or D-2 college of their choice. - - - Closer to home, Randy Kramasz of Las Lomas High and the Acalanes Vault Club has also done an incredible job taking rather "pedestrian" athletes and turning them into NCS record holders and consistently sending them off to compete at the CIF State Championship.

Moreover, to my knowledge neither the Slovers or Randy Kramasz have ever sought out athletes that have already had success.
Athletes have approached these fine coaches; not the other way around.
Funny how that happens, eh?

And while I sympathize with some of the high school coaches that have to deal with a number of issues and distractions, not the least of which are athletes that are involved in multiple sports throughout the year (and club soccer) . . . at the end of the day, it really should be about the kids,
should it not?

rnrdad
05-16-2013, 06:16 PM
Well of course it isn't racial... otherwise you would see distance runners from Jamaica, Trinidad & Tobago and Nigeria. It is genetic though. So much so that it isn't even all of Kenya that is fast, primarily they come from one tribe in Eldoeret. Different genetic groups have different characteristics. Take any average 5 kids from Kansas and have them wrestle any 5 kids from Samoa. Then have them go wrestle some Somalians. Then have all three of those groups race 3 miles. How do you think the results will turn out? Nothing is 100% or absolute but trends are pretty consistent. Why is it that when I go to Copenhagen I feel short or when I'm down in Peru I feel quite tall? Genetics.

Digging the hole deeper. These examples are ridiculous. You say nothing is absolute then make sweeping generalizations. You said Ireland and Mexico in a tanning contest so I assume you mean ALL are the same very white or dark complexion. You said western caucasians versus east africans and now you say only one tribe? You say not race but genetics?

I am very sorry but I am not buying your newest attempts to distract from what you meant. Are you really saying that there are no distance runners from Jamaica, Trinidad and Tobago and Nigeria because of their "genetics" or is it just not likely? Their genetics only allows them to be sprinters? Do all of the other countries in the world without world class distance runners, including those that do not have majority dark skinned people, do not have distance runners because they have the same genetics as Jamaica, etc as you identify?

Your continued sweeping generalization of peoples potentials based on genetics based on where they are from sure sounds like old racial stereotypes to me. Keep trying.

OK. It is now later. I am much calmer. I am not calling you a racist.

You are an educated person and do good things. But, what you said is insulting in my opinion even if you did not mean it to be. It was generalizations about peoples abilities based on where they are from. To many, including me, that kind of stereotyping is just wrong. To some, drawing conclusions, especially based on regions or countries is code for race, even if you call it genetics. A rose is a rose type of thing.

It was very shocking to see an educated person write that kind of stuff. I have no doubt that kind of thinking still exists, but I really do not think you, as an educator and coach, meant it the way it read.

HOWEVER, it still does smack of making excuses for Americans not beating everyone in the world in distance racing based on genetics, something completely out of anyone's control - it's not my fault. I still think that stinks. That is still saying we are naturally and inherently superior, and if it wasn't for those genes we would be winning.

Matt Rainwater
05-16-2013, 07:05 PM
11/10 good work ThreeTrees and rnrdad!

Martin Pennell
05-16-2013, 07:08 PM
Digging the hole deeper. These examples are ridiculous. You say nothing is absolute then make sweeping generalizations. You said Ireland and Mexico in a tanning contest so I assume you mean ALL are the same very white or dark complexion. You said western caucasians versus east africans and now you say only one tribe? You say not race but genetics?

I am very sorry but I am not buying your newest attempts to distract from what you meant. Are you really saying that there are no distance runners from Jamaica, Trinidad and Tobago and Nigeria because of their "genetics" or is it just not likely? Their genetics only allows them to be sprinters? Do all of the other countries in the world without world class distance runners, including those that do not have majority dark skinned people, do not have distance runners because they have the same genetics as Jamaica, etc as you identify?

Your continued sweeping generalization of peoples potentials based on genetics based on where they are from sure sounds like old racial stereotypes to me. Keep trying.

I said not racial because for practical purposes there are only 3 races, Caucasoids, Negroids and Mongoloids. Now Jamaicans are most definitely Negroids but they are genetically different from East Africans. Sprinters (at least the elite ones) are predominantly of West African decent. Like it or not, much of professional sports in America is a result of the slave trade. If you were a slave trader who would you want working your plantation, Haile Gebrselassie or Usain Bolt? You are also correct, I make generalizations which are not absolute, otherwise they would be, ABSOLUTES. Many people use the term "East Africans" to describe Kenyans, Ethiopians, Eritreans, Somalians, Sudanese and Ugandans. Now Ethiopians and Eritreans are genetically very similar as are Kenyans and Ugandans (even the most informed would have difficulty telling them apart) yet each of these duos are very different from each other (complexion, hair, bone structure, etc.). I say nothing of anomalies, take Jeremy Wariner or Christophe Lemaitre for example. They are the Galen Rupps of the sprinting world and they are outnumbered well over 100 to 1. There are also obese children in Somalia and some ectomorphs in Samoa to be sure, just as there may one day be a sub-13:00 Jamaican 5000m runner but these would not be the "norms". As far as racial stereotypes go... many are based in truth, otherwise they would never gain credence. Now I am referring to physical stereotypes vs. social stereotypes. Do people of African decent have curly hair? Far and away YES. Do people of Asian decent have straight hair? Again, YES. Are these stereotypes? Yes. Are they accurate? VERY Do they apply to everyone in those groups? OF COURSE NOT. Please don't mistake me for some good ol' boy Confederate because I don't appreciate your implications.

rnrdad
05-16-2013, 08:22 PM
I said not racial because for practical purposes there are only 3 races, Caucasoids, Negroids and Mongoloids. Now Jamaicans are most definitely Negroids but they are genetically different from East Africans. Sprinters (at least the elite ones) are predominantly of West African decent. Like it or not, much of professional sports in America is a result of the slave trade. If you were a slave trader who would you want working your plantation, Haile Gebrselassie or Usain Bolt? You are also correct, I make generalizations which are not absolute, otherwise they would be, ABSOLUTES. Many people use the term "East Africans" to describe Kenyans, Ethiopians, Eritreans, Somalians, Sudanese and Ugandans. Now Ethiopians and Eritreans are genetically very similar as are Kenyans and Ugandans (even the most informed would have difficulty telling them apart) yet each of these duos are very different from each other (complexion, hair, bone structure, etc.). I say nothing of anomalies, take Jeremy Wariner or Christophe Lemaitre for example. They are the Galen Rupps of the sprinting world and they are outnumbered well over 100 to 1. There are also obese children in Somalia and some ectomorphs in Samoa to be sure, just as there may one day be a sub-13:00 Jamaican 5000m runner but these would not be the "norms". As far as racial stereotypes go... many are based in truth, otherwise they would never gain credence. Now I am referring to physical stereotypes vs. social stereotypes. Do people of African decent have curly hair? Far and away YES. Do people of Asian decent have straight hair? Again, YES. Are these stereotypes? Yes. Are they accurate? VERY Do they apply to everyone in those groups? OF COURSE NOT. Please don't mistake me for some good ol' boy Confederate because I don't appreciate your implications.

Well, well. You force me back to my original concerns with your posts. I tried to give you a pass.

"much of professional sports in America is the result of the slave trade".

"who would you want working your plantation".

"some ectomorphs in Samoa"

"As far as racial stereotypes go... many are based in truth"

No, you are well beyond the excuses stage.

I am not calling you, or implying you are "some good ol' boy confederate. I said nothing of the kind. You said it. I don't even know how that comes into play.

I reacted to what you wrote and keep repeating, not some generalization between you and a group of people. That would be wrong i think.

It is clear you insist on making what and how you view people crystal clear.

Back to waiting to see who is going to come to your defense and how they are going to defend you.

Martin Pennell
05-16-2013, 08:36 PM
It is clear you insist on making what and how you view people crystal clear.

Back to waiting to see who is going to come to your defense and how they are going to defend you.

What exactly is crystal clear? How do I view people? As for the 2nd part, I wasn't aware that someone needed to come to my defense. You obviously disagree with something I've said (although I'm not exactly sure what or why) but I hardly consider that an "attack" on me, just a disagreement.

rnrdad
05-16-2013, 09:17 PM
What exactly is crystal clear? How do I view people? As for the 2nd part, I wasn't aware that someone needed to come to my defense. You obviously disagree with something I've said (although I'm not exactly sure what or why) but I hardly consider that an "attack" on me, just a disagreement.


Clever. Better. Still no cigar, though.

hanklaw
05-17-2013, 12:00 AM
You want some stats...? Since this thread began, Three Trees and RnrDad have 31 posts where all the others responses total 53. So if my math is correct, 3T & RD are responsible for 58% of the comments on this thread - I find that remarkable. But wait, since I just posted I think their % went down to 57%...

hank

Chad Scott
05-17-2013, 04:42 AM
Sorry Hank. But if those two have 31 posts, it would be 31/84 (84 total posts at the time...now up to 86) which would be 36.9%.

jebeat
05-17-2013, 05:50 AM
Hey Chad, Good luck to Mikey, Ryan, Sean, your boy's 4x400, girl's 4x100, etc. at CIF finals tomorrow. Aren't all of those outstanding kids coached by public high school coaches (sorry I couldn't resist!).

John Beattie
Buena High School

Track Dude
05-17-2013, 06:23 AM
Sorry Hank. But if those two have 31 posts, it would be 31/84 (84 total posts at the time...now up to 86) which would be 36.9%.

Ding! Ding! Ding!
We have a WINNER.
:D

rnrdad
05-17-2013, 06:43 AM
Ding! Ding! Ding!
We have a WINNER.
:D

More stats:

Regarding Me and Three Trees posting stats referenced

Vulture thread started by Soles views 4288 so far (adjust for this post, please)

Snarky thread started by Soles views 10,408

WATG 2013 thread started by Gardner views 1895

rnrdad
05-17-2013, 06:49 AM
Hey Chad, Good luck to Mikey, Ryan, Sean, your boy's 4x400, girl's 4x100, etc. at CIF finals tomorrow. Aren't all of those outstanding kids coached by public high school coaches (sorry I couldn't resist!).

John Beattie
Buena High School

Also at least three of the super frosh distance males are in public schools, and I heard something about a female phenom in distance also at a public school?

And aren't a lot of the frosh phenom in sprints, hurdles, throws, jumps in public also?

Isn't the guy who may very well win state in 1600\3200 double also a public school kid coached by a public school coach?

Haven't heard much about private school frosh phenoms this year, but I am sure they exist.

Maybe someone who knows more than me can compile a list. I am not being funny or attacking.

Public schools do have excellent coaches and get and develop excellent athletes.

Chad Scott
05-17-2013, 06:59 AM
Hey Chad, Good luck to Mikey, Ryan, Sean, your boy's 4x400, girl's 4x100, etc. at CIF finals tomorrow. Aren't all of those outstanding kids coached by public high school coaches (sorry I couldn't resist!).

John Beattie
Buena High School

:) Thanks John! And good luck to Erinn tomorrow! As a Bulldog alum I know Buena is a great public school!

-Chad

Doug Soles
05-17-2013, 07:42 AM
More stats:

Regarding Me and Three Trees posting stats referenced

Vulture thread started by Soles views 4288 so far (adjust for this post, please)

Snarky thread started by Soles views 10,408

WATG 2013 thread started by Gardner views 1895

This whiner is the winner of the most views contest. I choose to be paid in pennies! I would like them thrown about crazily as I walk the red carpet to my throne at the top of my ivory tower. On this there can be no confusion. Make it happen. ;)

Coach Razor
05-17-2013, 07:46 AM
I know it is all too easy to take things the wrong way when discussing genetics, so please don't over react anyone ;)
... but I believe that there are multiple genetic combinations beyond our understanding that allow a pre-disposition to achieving marks that are regarded as internationally elite. That said I think it is worth hearing what the Kenyans believe about themselves... This is taken directly from the 20 Kenyan commandments which I received via Manny Bautista in 2003. This is commandment 18:

"Choose ancestors who were pastoral people with a fondness for the "bride-price" system of marriage."
-[the related comments in the material I received on this Kenyan commandment are as follows]- Although there are at least 35 different tribal groups within Kenya, the majority of Kenya's internationally successful runners have come from a single tribe called the Kalenjins. That's a bit strange, since Kalenjins make up only about 4 percent or so of the entire population. Historically, Kalenjins lived a nomadic life tending roaming herds of cattle, and a young Kalenjin male was considered suitable for marriage only if he possessed an adequate number of beeves (this was the "bride price"). Since livestock didn't exactly grow on trees, enterprising young men would raid wandering herds at night (often those belonging to a different tribe) in an attempt to purloin enough hooves to impress the family of the potential bride. This involved running the cattle away from the main herd as quickly and for as great a distance as possible - before the theft was discovered. Thus, a direct link was established between outstanding endurance-running performances and fatherhood, an effect magnified by the tendency of Kenyan males to marry several times. It's all speculation (the Kalenjins have never been checked for performance-enhancing genes; indeed, we have a poor general understanding of which genes would be looked for in such a check), but it seems possible that the traditional bride price, cattle-rustling lifestyle might have selected segments of DNA which code for improved long-distance running.

While I may not put 100% belief in this, there certainly has to be something to it, no? And for the record I believe that genetics is only one of many components that go into achieving the quote unquote elite times. I hope it goes without saying that training, diet, desire, coaching, etc. are all essential components as well.

rnrdad
05-17-2013, 07:55 AM
This whiner is the winner of the most views contest. I choose to be paid in pennies! I would like them thrown about crazily as I walk the red carpet to my throne at the top of my ivory tower. On this there can be no confusion. Make it happen. ;)

Awesome response and you are the true king of "Snark".

I mean this in the most positive way.

You are an excellent coach and you have an excellent school.

Just as important you can take it as well as you give it. At least in my humble opinion.

Can't help but love you, man. Again, nothing negative intended.

Doug Soles
05-17-2013, 08:04 AM
Awesome response and you are the true king of "Snark".

I mean this in the most positive way.

You are an excellent coach and you have an excellent school.

Just as important you can take it as well as you give it. At least in my humble opinion.

Can't help but love you, man. Again, nothing negative intended.

Haha, thanks! I am trained by the best 14-18 year olds in the land. They have honed my skills into a finely tuned snarking machine. I was pretty awesome as a teenager myself though. I made 1st team All-Snark my senior year... ;)

Doug

rnrdad
05-17-2013, 08:19 AM
I know it is all too easy to take things the wrong way when discussing genetics, so please don't over react anyone ;)
... but I believe that there are multiple genetic combinations beyond our understanding that allow a pre-disposition to achieving marks that are regarded as internationally elite. That said I think it is worth hearing what the Kenyans believe about themselves... This is taken directly from the 20 Kenyan commandments which I received via Manny Bautista in 2003. This is commandment 18:

"Choose ancestors who were pastoral people with a fondness for the "bride-price" system of marriage."
-[the related comments in the material I received on this Kenyan commandment are as follows]- Although there are at least 35 different tribal groups within Kenya, the majority of Kenya's internationally successful runners have come from a single tribe called the Kalenjins. That's a bit strange, since Kalenjins make up only about 4 percent or so of the entire population. Historically, Kalenjins lived a nomadic life tending roaming herds of cattle, and a young Kalenjin male was considered suitable for marriage only if he possessed an adequate number of beeves (this was the "bride price"). Since livestock didn't exactly grow on trees, enterprising young men would raid wandering herds at night (often those belonging to a different tribe) in an attempt to purloin enough hooves to impress the family of the potential bride. This involved running the cattle away from the main herd as quickly and for as great a distance as possible - before the theft was discovered. Thus, a direct link was established between outstanding endurance-running performances and fatherhood, an effect magnified by the tendency of Kenyan males to marry several times. It's all speculation (the Kalenjins have never been checked for performance-enhancing genes; indeed, we have a poor general understanding of which genes would be looked for in such a check), but it seems possible that the traditional bride price, cattle-rustling lifestyle might have selected segments of DNA which code for improved long-distance running.

While I may not put 100% belief in this, there certainly has to be something to it, no? And for the record I believe that genetics is only one of many components that go into achieving the quote unquote elite times. I hope it goes without saying that training, diet, desire, coaching, etc. are all essential components as well.

Cultures around the world have similar "commandments" and legends.

A cable channel just had a series on the Vikings that could parallel this. Just becasue someone, or a culture thinks something about themselves does not even make it true. The Greek legends, the other cultures that know they are descendants, favorites of, and intermigled with the Gods?

The problem with drawing conclusions, and then pre determining or predicting what a person can do or not do, or is likely to do or not do, or accomplish based on where they come from is fallacy and ethically wrong. Moreover it is illegal if race, color, national origin, ancestry, religion, etc are actually what one means when they say genetics or region or country.

I get what you are saying that it is genetics that create body types that lend themselves to certain predicitons, and I am sure you agree that there are always exceptions.

When anyone inserts cultural traditions into the genetics analyses it gets even closer to pre judgement based on race, color, region etc. That is a very slippery slope.

Again, I am not calling you or anyone a racist or otherwise.

It is just annoying and offensive to me, having been part of the sixties and continuing movement to eliminate this kind of classification and presumptions about people and their expected abilites, accomplishments, attitudes, or conduct.

It is also annoying and offensive to me when someone uses "genetic" predetermination as reason that "they just can't be beat". In my mind that is really unjustified excuse making.

As you say training, diet, desire, coaching etc. are all essential elements. It is just my opinion that I would prefer to see those as the essential elements.

Wasn't the accepted expert opinion, by many respected people at least, that elite world class sprinters had to be shorter until Usain Bolt came along? Please lets leave the drug discussion alone for now since we are discussing genetic predisposition as the deciding factor. Also, I have seen taal, short, muscular, thin, short legged and long legged elite world class distance and middle distance runners.

I do understand the distinction you are drawing. What I am saying is that it is a very slippery slope to say that where person comes from has a predetermination on what they can do and if you insert culture to that mix it gets super slippery.

I am NOT saying I know more or are smarter than you. I am not attacking you. Just my opinion.

Coach Razor
05-17-2013, 08:55 AM
Rnrdad... I do hope you understood from the various disclaimers I put in that I'm fully aware of the slipperiness of the slope. I was pointing out some information to allow discussion (to be honest, I don't have a firm opinion and was truly engaging conversation for the sake of really listening to anyone who might post to help further my own understanding). My girlfriend of many years & fiancé, is of mixed race and that close relationship has allowed us to often ponder many things in a frank way. She is ironically enough descended in part from the Vikings you referenced in your reply. My view on genetics has been recently changed greatly due to events of my own life. Without getting into too many details, I spent 30yrs of my life never having met nor interacted with my biological father... He passed 5yrs ago not long after we had finally begun interaction over the phone with the intention to meet. Unfortunately he fell victim to an accident which took his life. This ultimately led to my meeting & becoming a part of that side of my family. The most curious things started being noticed. A host of mannerisms, ways that I moved, talked, etc were all revealed to me to be precisely as my father had. Clearly environment was not the cause. Before this experience I had put the lions share of my stock in the environmental column. I have since had to acknowledg the genetic component more than I previously had. What that mix is I won't venture a guess, but I certainly tilt towards the genetic influence more than before. There are many more similarities I am not covering, but suffice it to say they are numerous. I'll be the first to say much is beyond my understanding but I am fascinated by the genetic vs. environment question & probably more so because of my own life experience. Further influence because the nature of what I do puts me on the front lines so to speak of the question. I am a super positive person as those who know me can attest. Athletics has so much more to offer than just the pure athletic potential of the young people I have the pleasure to work with. But if I am allowed to just speak to physical abilities only for a moment, my neutral assumption is to begin with the belief that any one of my athletes has the potential for greatness. And I try my best to be educated, continually take courses, read journal articles, discuss with other coaches, and more... so that I may provide the best possible environment for success that I am capable of providing.

Doug Soles
05-17-2013, 09:01 AM
Rnrdad... I do hope you understood from the various disclaimers I put in that I'm fully aware of the slipperiness of the slope. I was pointing out some information to allow discussion (to be honest, I don't have a firm opinion and was truly engaging conversation for the sake of really listening to anyone who might post to help further my own understanding). My girlfriend of many years & fiancé, is of mixed race and that close relationship has allowed us to often ponder many things in a frank way. She is ironically enough descended in part from the Vikings you referenced in your reply. My view on genetics has been recently changed greatly due to events of my own life. Without getting into too many details, I spent 30yrs of my life never having met nor interacted with my biological father... He passed 5yrs ago not long after we had finally begun interaction over the phone with the intention to meet. Unfortunately he fell victim to an accident which took his life. This ultimately led to my meeting & becoming a part of that side of my family. The most curious things started being noticed. A host of mannerisms, ways that I moved, talked, etc were all revealed to me to be precisely as my father had. Clearly environment was not the cause. Before this experience I had put the lions share of my stock in the environmental column. I have since had to acknowledg the genetic component more than I previously had. What that mix is I won't venture a guess, but I certainly tilt towards the genetic influence more than before. There are many more similarities I am not covering, but suffice it to say they are numerous. I'll be the first to say much is beyond my understanding but I am fascinated by the genetic vs. environment question & probably more so because of my own life experience. Further influence because the nature of what I do puts me on the front lines so to speak of the question. I am a super positive person as those who know me can attest. Athletics has so much more to offer than just the pure athletic potential of the young people I have the pleasure to work with. But if I am allowed to just speak to physical abilities only for a moment, my neutral assumption is to begin with the belief that any one of my athletes has the potential for greatness. And I try my best to be educated, continually take courses, read journal articles, discuss with other coaches, and more... so that I may provide the best possible environment for success that I am capable of providing.

I'm still trying to get over the shock that anyone that has seen you in that hat would still consider marrying you! ;)

All jokes aside, I do not think my 7 year old is my son. I think he is my clone! Not sure how they did it, but he has to be a clone, down to the exact same palette for food. It is really weird sometimes!

Doug

Coach Razor
05-17-2013, 09:18 AM
I'm still trying to get over the shock that anyone that has seen you in that hat would still consider marrying you! ;)

All jokes aside, I do not think my 7 year old is my son. I think he is my clone! Not sure how they did it, but he has to be a clone, down to the exact same palette for food. It is really weird sometimes!

Doug

Lol... Can you believe she actually thinks I look "adorable" in that hat! I have questioned her sanity for associating with the likes of me, but her affections persist. I am counting on the fact that no one from my personal life actually reads this board, as we are withholding official announcement of our engagement until after she finishes moving in... Sometime in June. A bit of old fashioned-ness. You better not be trolling mom!

Good luck this weekend Doug.

rnrdad
05-17-2013, 10:00 AM
Rnrdad... I do hope you understood from the various disclaimers I put in that I'm fully aware of the slipperiness of the slope. I was pointing out some information to allow discussion (to be honest, I don't have a firm opinion and was truly engaging conversation for the sake of really listening to anyone who might post to help further my own understanding). My girlfriend of many years & fiancé, is of mixed race and that close relationship has allowed us to often ponder many things in a frank way. She is ironically enough descended in part from the Vikings you referenced in your reply. My view on genetics has been recently changed greatly due to events of my own life. Without getting into too many details, I spent 30yrs of my life never having met nor interacted with my biological father... He passed 5yrs ago not long after we had finally begun interaction over the phone with the intention to meet. Unfortunately he fell victim to an accident which took his life. This ultimately led to my meeting & becoming a part of that side of my family. The most curious things started being noticed. A host of mannerisms, ways that I moved, talked, etc were all revealed to me to be precisely as my father had. Clearly environment was not the cause. Before this experience I had put the lions share of my stock in the environmental column. I have since had to acknowledg the genetic component more than I previously had. What that mix is I won't venture a guess, but I certainly tilt towards the genetic influence more than before. There are many more similarities I am not covering, but suffice it to say they are numerous. I'll be the first to say much is beyond my understanding but I am fascinated by the genetic vs. environment question & probably more so because of my own life experience. Further influence because the nature of what I do puts me on the front lines so to speak of the question. I am a super positive person as those who know me can attest. Athletics has so much more to offer than just the pure athletic potential of the young people I have the pleasure to work with. But if I am allowed to just speak to physical abilities only for a moment, my neutral assumption is to begin with the belief that any one of my athletes has the potential for greatness. And I try my best to be educated, continually take courses, read journal articles, discuss with other coaches, and more... so that I may provide the best possible environment for success that I am capable of providing.

And that is how I took it and why my response was meant to explain what I thought and why I thought that way.
I have never met you, but I sure have watched you and your athletes and am always super impressed. I am also very impressed by your school being ranked, 8th in the nation as one of Americas most challenging? And your alum the basketball player in the news recently. And the LA times article about your school philosphy re sports and academics?

I hope you did not for a minute think I was being negative as to you. I was not.

By the way, from where I come from, that hat is quite sophisticated.

And congrats.

I edited because I wanted to be accurate.

The Washington Post issued it's ranking of "Americas Most Challenging High Schools" a few months ago. For Southern Cal Schools here is how they were ranked:

Poly Pasadena 4
Flintridge Prep 6
Harvard Westlake 8
Webb 20
Westridge 21
Loyola 23
Cathedral Catholic 40

This is just thier ranking on their criteria. You can see it at WashingtonPost, Highschoolchallenge.

I am not attesting to how thorough or accurate, or what criteria was used. I am not trying to insult anyone.

I thik it is very cool that 7 Southern California High Schools are in the top 50 across the nation, for whatever it is worth.

And YES there are very very very good public schools.

cush
05-17-2013, 10:40 AM
this thread was way more interesting before this recent love fest.

so, in effort to stir it up more, has anyone ever seen threetrees and rich gonzalez in the same room together?

also, on the subject of genetics: not much (meaning some, but not a lot, and not definitive) scientific data to back up some of the claims here, but there is certainly statistical data. i hate to refer to a study i can't completely recall--i think it was in scientific american, but pre-internet days--but i remember it looked at bell curves with regards to distance excellence and sprinting comparing europeans, west africans and east africans (yes, these are broad categories, but i can't remember if the article addressed that, or where it put north africans; nor do i remember why asians were excluded). its conclusion was that the top of the curve was the same for each group, but the flatness at the top of the curve varied (i.e. the density at the top). so, as most would guess, the depth of talent for distance is greater for east africans, and sprints favored west africans (and african-americans primarily of west african descent); also telling, though, was that a caucasian/european had greater depth in distances than w. africans, and greater depth in sprinting than east africans. worth emphasizing again was that the top of the curve was essentially the same. so, you could make an easy argument for other factors controlling depth, such as cultural priorities and environment...

rnrdad
05-17-2013, 11:22 AM
this thread was way more interesting before this recent love fest.

so, in effort to stir it up more, has anyone ever seen threetrees and rich gonzalez in the same room together?

also, on the subject of genetics: not much (meaning some, but not a lot, and not definitive) scientific data to back up some of the claims here, but there is certainly statistical data. i hate to refer to a study i can't completely recall--i think it was in scientific american, but pre-internet days--but i remember it looked at bell curves with regards to distance excellence and sprinting comparing europeans, west africans and east africans (yes, these are broad categories, but i can't remember if the article addressed that, or where it put north africans; nor do i remember why asians were excluded). its conclusion was that the top of the curve was the same for each group, but the flatness at the top of the curve varied (i.e. the density at the top). so, as most would guess, the depth of talent for distance is greater for east africans, and sprints favored west africans (and african-americans primarily of west african descent); also telling, though, was that a caucasian/european had greater depth in distances than w. africans, and greater depth in sprinting than east africans. worth emphasizing again was that the top of the curve was essentially the same. so, you could make an easy argument for other factors controlling depth, such as cultural priorities and environment...

Lets start stirring.

Wasn't there a scene in Django where the DiCaprio character used genetics to explain why the slaves hadn't killed him and his father? Something about the skull and how that made the slaves want to be dominated or something?

And if you want to use old data (pre-Internet?) why not use the genetic data that proved Blacks could not be quarterbacks, poor folk loved being poor and not having all the rich man problems, or lets really go back and revive the data to support the "White Man's Burden"

What is my point? Everybody knows we can find some "scientific study" to support anything.

Yeah, bigger more muscular guys ought to be able to hit harder, or throw farther, and there are a whole lot of them from over there.

This is kind of like "If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it must be a duck". Except that is in fact a logical fallacy but it sure works in advertisement and it worked for McCarthy in the red purges.

Prejudging based on immutable characteristics ( A certain race has certain physical characteristics and the culture from which they come has been known to do certain things) is the foundation for anti-discrimination laws. Genetics is pretty darn close. Jewish people? Mostly from one or two tribes?

So go ahead, dredge up all the studies you want. But stop making excuses why you "just can't beat em".

Why not adopt what you and Razor said: Training, attitude of the INDIVIDUAL no matter where they come from, diet (not cultural), coaching are what matters.

By the way, some people can run long distances because they come from a bunch of cow thieves? There was gene devloped while stealing cows that has been passed down even if no one in their ancestral line has stolen a cow in quite a while? This is the kind of data relied on? Where are all the cattle rustling cowboy descendants? Oh, they used horses. Sorry.

And just to be sure I am not calling anyone anything, just stirring as requested.

Come on, lets have some fun.

ThreeTrees
05-17-2013, 11:51 AM
this thread was way more interesting before this recent love fest.

so, in effort to stir it up more, has anyone ever seen threetrees and rich gonzalez in the same room together?



Why would you ever want to bring Rich into this? the guy is a god in my opinion for all he does for the sport. ok, a demi-god. And he wouldn't know me from Adam. I've actually spoken personally with you more than rich. Hey, has anyone ever seen cush and threetrees in the same room together? hmmmmm.

but I agree, i did nod off with the love-fest . . . zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Keith Chann
05-17-2013, 12:06 PM
Hey, has anyone ever seen cush and threetrees in the same room together? hmmmmm.


Well, we know who Cush is but ThreeTrees remains anonymous so perhaps we have!! He/She could be anyone.
I have seen Cush standing next to trees but I did not count them. It could have been three trees but it might have been four!

Good luck to all competing, or hoping for scratches (me) this weekend!

ThreeTrees
05-17-2013, 12:13 PM
so, in effort to stir it up more



So Cush, I have to ask, where do you really come out this issue?

I find the discourse to be rather amusing, and would be on the ground laughing at some of the posts if we weren't dealing with such a serious issue for so many kids. One of my original points was that public school coaches cannot possibly know so much about the sport that they can coach every type of elite athlete to their potential. As merely illustrative of the point, I asked who out there really could coach 16'0 / 4:10 / 7'0 athletes. As you well know, the point was simply that a public school coach takes whatever walks in the door, and it's not remotely possible to know what that will be or to be an expert in every one the events. I listed 3 as "examples" of elite athlete that could walk in the door. The most amusing response yet on this board is a coach doesn't need to know, because elite athletes are so rare that he will never face three athletes in the same year with those marks. You have to admit, that was pretty funny. :)

TrackDude got it right. He put it far more eloquently, and nicely, than I ever could. What do you really think about the need for public coaches, like Hernandez, to work with outside "experts?" Or the rights of kids to transfer if they can't get the help.

Martin Pennell
05-17-2013, 12:42 PM
[QUOTE=rnrdad;1199]Lets start stirring.

Wasn't there a scene in Django where the DiCaprio character used genetics to explain why the slaves hadn't killed him and his father? Something about the skull and how that made the slaves want to be dominated or something?

And if you want to use old data (pre-Internet?) why not use the genetic data that proved Blacks could not be quarterbacks, poor folk loved being poor and not having all the rich man problems, or lets really go back and revive the data to support the "White Man's Burden"

What is my point? Everybody knows we can find some "scientific study" to support anything.

Yeah, bigger more muscular guys ought to be able to hit harder, or throw farther, and there are a whole lot of them from over there.

This is kind of like "If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it must be a duck". Except that is in fact a logical fallacy but it sure works in advertisement and it worked for McCarthy in the red purges.

Prejudging based on immutable characteristics ( A certain race has certain physical characteristics and the culture from which they come has been known to do certain things) is the foundation for anti-discrimination laws. Genetics is pretty darn close. Jewish people? Mostly from one or two tribes?

So go ahead, dredge up all the studies you want. But stop making excuses why you "just can't beat em".

Why not adopt what you and Razor said: Training, attitude of the INDIVIDUAL no matter where they come from, diet (not cultural), coaching are what matters.

By the way, some people can run long distances because they come from a bunch of cow thieves? There was gene devloped while stealing cows that has been passed down even if no one in their ancestral line has stolen a cow in quite a while? This is the kind of data relied on? Where are all the cattle rustling cowboy descendants? Oh, they used horses. Sorry.

And just to be sure I am not calling anyone anything, just stirring as requested.

Come on, lets have some fun.[/QUOTE

There is no accurate scientific data that suggests blacks can't be quarterbacks, if anything that was a sociological argument, and one that has clearly been proven wrong. I know of no studies for my points, nor do I need any. Look at the All-Times lists for 5k and 10k and tell me what you see... East African domination. They don't all posses "the gift" but it is certainly far more prevalent over there. I used to manage several Kenyan athletes and one them, Ibrahim Limo ran a 3:43 1500m as 16 yr old. Did he have advanced coaching or facilities? No. Was he competing professionally with motivation of financial gain to feed his family and village? No. He was a 16 yr old kid in rural Kenya and he was fast, but by no means the fastest of his contemporaries. As far as I know, no American kid has ever run that fast at that age. In 2009 German Fernandez broke Galen Rupp's American Jr. record for 5000m running 13:25.46. That same year he would have only been #12 on the Kenyan Jr. list, not the Kenyan All Time Jr. list, just the 2009 list. The fastest Jr. Kenyan in 2009 ran 12:57.43, which at the time was faster than the then current American Record. The Kenyan Jr. record is 12:48.64 and all told they have 7 kids faster than the American Record. Who holds the American Record btw? Oh yeah, a Kenyan. Nature vs. Nurture... Nature wins this battle.

P.S. I apologize for hijacking this thread. This latest convo I've been engaged in has nothing to do with the original post.

ThreeTrees
05-17-2013, 03:15 PM
I would have to agree with Doug Soles. I've been coaching at Monroe H.S for 14 years and the very few instances I've had with private coaches have been squashed. What ends up happening is the kids transfer to other schools that do allow private coaches, since I don't. That might explain why I never get kids from the youth track programs from around my H.S

Ok, Rene’s gonna slap me silly for this, but what the heck. No sense arguing with the state’s top teams. Every kid would be lucky to live near them. But others . . .

So, Coach Hernandez, I think I can offer another reason why you don’t attract the top youth talent. I think you misunderstood me earlier. I didn't say your kids “wouldn't place in a southland 8th grade class.” To be precise, I said, “there are several top youth coaches in the southland that can almost do that with 8th graders.”

Now I’ll admit, I may have been overstating my case to make a point, as I so often do. So I thought, heck, this coach believes his athletes are so much better off without private coaches, why not just go back and check. So, here’s how your top varsity team would have performed against the 8th graders at the SoCal USATF regional meet last year. This isn’t the Nationals meet, mind you, just the local meet. And the analysis was limited to only the following events. Against the intermediate runners, your runners would have placed as follows:

100 – 12.36 (10th place)
800 – 2:07 (13th place)
1600 – 4:38 (4th place) 5 points
3200 – 9:58 (3rd place) 4 points
HJ – 5’8” (13th place)
LJ – 18’2” (13th place)
PV– NH (no place)

Using the state’s scoring (10/8/6/5/4/3/2/1), you would have finished tied for 5th overall among our 8th grade teams, scoring these events only, right behind Long Beach Sprinters, Temecula Valley, So Cal Roadrunners, Victory and So Cal Running. But I’ll have you know that you performed quite well against the Equalizers, Quiet Fire, Hyperspeed and the Wildcats, and if you know anything about youth sports, they are some of the better 8th grade teams around. So it’s not all bad. On the other hand, there were 3 individuals that alone scored more points than your entire team, but if they’re running as unattached I really don’t see how we can give them a team trophy.

Well, in the immortal words of Tony, I think we can safely call this debate a draw.

Please, don’t respond to that. I’m such a stats guy that I might just go back and score your entire men’s team against the FR/SO race of the Orange county championships.

For this one, yes, I actually deserve to be slammed. But Coach Hernandez also deserves a wake-up call for doing what’s he’s doing to his athletes. This is a painful point to make, but this "my way or the highway" mentality exists throughout southland sports. I really have no objection to how Coach Hernandez runs his team. But at least give the kids the opportunity to leave with impunity. Let them go somewhere better suited to their passions.

ThreeTrees
05-17-2013, 03:44 PM
You know, there's something deeper going on in the above analysis. And not just that I'm a jerk for doing it.

Peel back the onion a bit. It's really interesting to see, on so many levels, how well our 8th grade youth teams perform against a city high school team. What's interesting is that the youth teams don't automatically draft the kids from their area. No, the kids actually decide who they want to be coached by. It's all about choice. And it's amazing what happens when you have choice. There is no, I've got the whistle and I'm in charge mentality. Kids in youth sports gravitate to those they will challenge them the best. hmmmmmmm.

Chad Scott
05-17-2013, 04:04 PM
No, the kids actually decide who they want to be coached by. It's all about choice. And it's amazing what happens when you have choice. There is no, I've got the whistle and I'm in charge mentality. Kids in youth sports gravitate to those they will challenge them the best. hmmmmmmm.

That's a generalized statement unsubstantiated by any studies or facts.

rnrdad
05-17-2013, 04:26 PM
As to genetics:

All you have shown me tells me that stats show they are beating us. Duh.

You are right as to the Black Quarterback issue - no hard scientific data and no longer accepted sociological ideas, though I clearly recall people spouting "scientific data" back then. The point is it was wrong but accepted by many at the time.

I say that is what your stats are doing now. No one denies that they are beating us. BUT by saying genetics shows we can't beat them is baloney, and nothing more than unacceptable excuses. "I would have been first if not for the 9 guys ahead of me, but no fair because they are genetically superior...... so why try"

Come on - instead of looking for excuses, look for solutions.

As to private coaches again:

Three Trees you are the man.

These complaining coaches have everything they need and still want to blame the "private coaches for any little problem they have." They should join the genetics group. And I specificaly am talking about the few that are actually complaining and calling the clubs and private coaches dirty names.

What did WATG gain in their thread about all the illegal undue influence transfers? 12 in total was all they could identify, and they all looked pretty legit to me. We managed to make it through the season and some of those same complainers are looking good for State.

I have no option but to agree that it is a power issue, plain and simple.

When reviewed in totality the complainers argue doomsday, disaster, parents being duped and stolen from, and how sad they are to see the kids suffer. But no hard facts. All that high minded I am the boss mentality didn't look so good in the Three Trees comparison.

Stop whining. Just admit you want total control but no blame if anything goes just a little bit wrong. Most Coaches already do their job and do it well without the control freak and excuses mentality. Join the bandwagon.

rnrdad
05-17-2013, 04:32 PM
That's a generalized statement unsubstantiated by any studies or facts.

No, that is a fact. Anyone involved in club sports knows that.

ThreeTrees
05-17-2013, 06:22 PM
That's a generalized statement unsubstantiated by any studies or facts.

I stand corrected. While Mr. Scoot’s understanding of the youth scene may be a little myopic, he isn't necessarily wrong. At least not overly so, given his limited perspective. Mr. Scott actually raises a good point, if not unintentionally, with immense parallels to the current high school issue.

There a lot of coaches on this thread that actually understand the youth leagues. They know why Rocha, Brown and Tamagno ran for Dr. Mike, or why Ogden was down at the Wildcats. And for those of you that don’t know, there are actually 3 Youth leagues in Southern California. It’s kind of like soccer in some respects: a Gold league (USATF), a Silver league (SCYTFC) and a recreational league (VCYTC). The USATF is the free agent system. The kids run for the coach they think is best for their unique skills, and they produce the best athletes (at the youth level, that is). The VCYTC (which is where Mr. Scott is from), is much like the high schools. They, like the SCYTFC, restrict the kids to the coaches in their own areas, and not surprisingly, it’s a recreational league where the times don’t match the USATF. And I do say that with some generalization, because they have produced some great athletes like Philip Reid and the Rio Mesa sprinters. Several years ago they had Easton Tackett, and he was one of the top 5 kids in the nation (but come to think of it, that was when he was running for his private coach, long before Ventura said no to Josh and his “private coaching” methods). Hmmmmm. But I digress.

The interesting thing on the Youth side is when kids are given a choice, they gravitate to the Roadrunners, the Wildcats, the Equalizers, and others like them, if they run distance, and to Quiet Fire, the Eagles and the Long Beach Sprinters, etc., if they run sprints. And this years’ class of freshman is so much the better for it.

Martin Pennell
05-17-2013, 06:35 PM
I say that is what your stats are doing now. No one denies that they are beating us. BUT by saying genetics shows we can't beat them is baloney, and nothing more than unacceptable excuses. "I would have been first if not for the 9 guys ahead of me, but no fair because they are genetically superior...... so why try"

Come on - instead of looking for excuses, look for solutions.


Who said anything about not trying? My whole life is dedicated to getting kids to achieve their potential. Running is not about winning. If it is, I'm surrounded by losers. Only one person crosses the line first, but that in no way prevents every competitor from "winning". If you can think of a way to get Western kids to run like their African counterparts there is a nice job at Oregon or Stanford waiting for you. Do you think they just train harder over there? Go tell that to Chris Solinski or Matt Tegenkamp. Is it all the ugali they eat? Lot's of runners and coaches have made pilgrimages over there and spent much time training and living, one of my former athletes spent 6 months there in Kip Keino's camp. Did they come back here and take the world by storm with their previously unattainable PR's? No. Strive to be better than you've been, work hard and keep improving... that is what determines success. But realize that different groups have different traits. I've never seen a Husky down at the track racing Greyhounds, nor have I ever seen a Greyhound in the Iditarod. Don't read into this last part too much and think I am saying that Kenya should not train sprinters and Jamaican kids should not try running distance, I'm merely stating again, different groups have different chacteristics.

Martin Pennell
05-17-2013, 07:13 PM
What's interesting is that the youth teams don't automatically draft the kids from their area. No, the kids actually decide who they want to be coached by. It's all about choice. And it's amazing what happens when you have choice. There is no, I've got the whistle and I'm in charge mentality. Kids in youth sports gravitate to those they will challenge them the best. hmmmmmmm.

OK I finally feel I have something to contribute back on the post's original topic. ThreeTrees, what do you really think this choice will change? What if we just abolished CIF? Would we be better off then? In the UK the kids don't compete for their schools, athletics is entirely based in the club system. I'm sure there are some benefits they experience but on a performance basis they are way behind us. Each year many of their best runners come here to attend universities however I can't say I have ever heard of the opposite. Then once we get to the international level of competition it is not even close. I believe in choice, I believe in giving yourself the best opportunities to be successful but with everything there are limitations. With unlimited choice all the best athletes might end up at L.B. Poly or Arcadia or Dana Hills. Over time it would kill our sport as those schools would become so powerful that it would essentially be like 3rd world economics, a few very rich and powerful with everyone else in poverty. It is competition among the masses that breeds success. It is Dana Hills' combination of excellence AND vulnerability that make me and my team strive to be better. They are not unbeatable but have set the bar incredibly high. Even if we don't beat them, just by closing the gap we are better than we were.

ThreeTrees
05-17-2013, 07:27 PM
Ok, I've tried hard to stay away from that "other thread" that's going on here, but mary cain's 4:04.62 tonight is strong support for both the private coaching argument AND the U.S. can compete with the Kenyans argument.

decker's was legendary; Hassay was unbelievable; but this is beyond belief!!! Woot!!! Woot!!! 1 second slower than Faith Kipyegon was at the same last year, but 1 year younger too.

cush
05-17-2013, 07:40 PM
i have to agree with martin here, threetrees, if you want to know where i stand. i also think private coaching intrusion/support is truly on a case by case basis--it depends on the event, the coach, the athlete, the parents, and probably other things i can't think of now. one element of my job as a public school instructor/coach that i believe in strongly is the attempt to level the playing field and offer opportunities to everyone. yes, this attempt fails at times. but i still believe in the attempt.

finally, your view of the club system is probably a little off. there is not as much choice as it seems. yes, you have kids taking advantage of the free market by jumping clubs, but they are just as often limited by geography and/or just limited choices (as they will be with the high school experience) if, for example, you want to have a team experience at club national meets. and, as much as i'm an advocate for choice, sometimes it's just as--if not more--valuable to learn how to overcome/adapt to the situations you find yourself in. if you always find the alternative/easier path/path of least resistance, you may have just as little a chance to succeed in this sport as you would otherwise--maybe less--but that is purely conjecture and personal opinion....

Martin Pennell
05-17-2013, 08:00 PM
Ok, I've tried hard to stay away from that "other thread" that's going on here, but mary cain's 4:04.62 tonight is strong support for both the private coaching argument AND the U.S. can compete with the Kenyans argument.

cd

That was amazing as was the Jr. Kenyan girl that ran 3:56 last week. Salazar is fantastic to be sure, but he also cherry picked the best mid distance runner North America has ever seen. She ran 4:10 as a soph before they had ever met.

rnrdad
05-17-2013, 08:07 PM
OK I finally feel I have something to contribute back on the post's original topic. ThreeTrees, what do you really think this choice will change? What if we just abolished CIF? Would we be better off then? In the UK the kids don't compete for their schools, athletics is entirely based in the club system. I'm sure there are some benefits they experience but on a performance basis they are way behind us. Each year many of their best runners come here to attend universities however I can't say I have ever heard of the opposite. Then once we get to the international level of competition it is not even close. I believe in choice, I believe in giving yourself the best opportunities to be successful but with everything there are limitations. With unlimited choice all the best athletes might end up at L.B. Poly or Arcadia or Dana Hills. Over time it would kill our sport as those schools would become so powerful that it would essentially be like 3rd world economics, a few very rich and powerful with everyone else in poverty. It is competition among the masses that breeds success. It is Dana Hills' combination of excellence AND vulnerability that make me and my team strive to be better. They are not unbeatable but have set the bar incredibly high. Even if we don't beat them, just by closing the gap we are better than we were.

Doomsday scenario, again. This was raised often in the WATG and Snarky thread. CIF new rules on athletic transfers changed to say can transfer but sit out one month. Variations of your scenario stated. Even predictions of kids transferring every year for various sports. WATG asked for a reporting of transfers. 12 were reported. 12.

Everyone knows, but none will admit that kids have been using academic transfer for sports for sometime now.

Despite all that mayhem and destruction this years track season is surviving and the coaches who complained the loudest and predicted the worst are still doing just fine.

Most of the clubs draw from a geographical area, but the better ones do draw from out of area too. For example the Equalizers are an Orange County (Tustin area) team but have had kids from San Gabriel Valley. Same for the Roadrunners, Quiet Fire, LA Jets, etc. And yes kids change clubs and coaches but not willy nilly. The same club teams and coaches that have been delivering the Elias Gidyeons, Tamagnos, and out of area - Hasays that Public coaches get and then demonize where they came from.

Choice does make a difference and usually a positive one. Unlike some of you, I think history has shown that the vast, vast majority of parents make good choices and for good reasons This is kind of the way it already is with schools. Free choice will not change it much --cetainly not as you predict.

No there will not be trouble in River City. Take your tuba on down the road. No sale here

These doomsday predictions do not pass muster. The vast majority of kids will end up in neighborhood private or public schools. Some will go out of area for faith\philosophical reasons and some because of parent commute. A very few of the overall will change for sports -- very much as they already are.

rnrdad
05-17-2013, 08:14 PM
That was amazing as was the Jr. Kenyan girl that ran 3:56 last week. Salazar is fantastic to be sure, but he also cherry picked the best mid distance runner North America has ever seen. She ran 4:10 as a soph before they had ever met.

So you are against cherry picking. You want the best coaches to only accept mediocre athletes. OK

If next year's Tamagno, Rocha, Ogden, German Fernandez, Haney, Baxter, Hasay or Gidyeon shows up on your campus you will run them off.

rnrdad
05-17-2013, 08:43 PM
finally, your view of the club system is probably a little off. there is not as much choice as it seems. yes, you have kids taking advantage of the free market by jumping clubs, but they are just as often limited by geography and/or just limited choices (as they will be with the high school experience) if, for example, you want to have a team experience at club national meets. and, as much as i'm an advocate for choice, sometimes it's just as--if not more--valuable to learn how to overcome/adapt to the situations you find yourself in. if you always find the alternative/easier path/path of least resistance, you may have just as little a chance to succeed in this sport as you would otherwise--maybe less--but that is purely conjecture and personal opinion....

This part of your post would make a great argument for choice and telling the control coaches the reason they are wrong is control is the easier but possibly least effective way.
Kind of describes the way it already is.

Leo Hernnandez
05-17-2013, 08:59 PM
Threetrees,

I don't appreciate you saying I need a wake up call just because you think I need youth coaches helping me, or allowing kids to bring in private coaches just so I can attract youth kids. I prefer the kids I get. They are a special breed. Thanks to the many coaching clinics offered through the AAFLA and my 16 years of coaching and also being taught at CSUN by Pam Spencer Marquez. I have learned to coach all events minus the pole vault. Even when I first started at Monroe in 1999 coach Dean Balzarett was a great mentor until he retired in 2007. Dean Balzarett actually has coached a 59 foot shot putter, 15 foot pole vaulter(1972), 4:12 miler(1974), 7'2.25 high jumper(1996), 1:53 880, 21.3 220, 48' tj. I went into teaching coaching because I love the sport. I recruit my kids from Monroe's p.e classes only and from others sports at Monroe in order to build my team. I don't need youth coaches recruiting kids from their youth programs in order to have success with very good eight graders that would have beat my boys varsity team. Also in my opinion athletes are better off listening to one person and only being coached by one person.

ThreeTrees
05-17-2013, 09:00 PM
i have to agree with martin here, threetrees, if you want to know where i stand. i also think private coaching intrusion/support is truly on a case by case basis--it depends on the event, the coach, the athlete, the parents, and probably other things i can't think of now. one element of my job as a public school instructor/coach that i believe in strongly is the attempt to level the playing field and offer opportunities to everyone. yes, this attempt fails at times. but i still believe in the attempt.

finally, your view of the club system is probably a little off. there is not as much choice as it seems. yes, you have kids taking advantage of the free market by jumping clubs, but they are just as often limited by geography and/or just limited choices (as they will be with the high school experience) if, for example, you want to have a team experience at club national meets. and, as much as i'm an advocate for choice, sometimes it's just as--if not more--valuable to learn how to overcome/adapt to the situations you find yourself in. if you always find the alternative/easier path/path of least resistance, you may have just as little a chance to succeed in this sport as you would otherwise--maybe less--but that is purely conjecture and personal opinion....

I agree that Martin is framing the real issue. So much of this comes down to a desire to give every kid a shot at the championship, doesn’t it? That seems to make sense on a very base level. But is that remotely possible? Can Indio really compete in football? Can Calabasas compete in track? Can Mater Dei compete in golf? Ok, yes to the latter, because they can compete in everything. But that’s because they’re willing to invest the resources to compete in everything. Can every other school be great in everything? It’s just not possible to level the playing field the way social constructionists would like to.

So instead what happens is precisely the case described above. Coaches take control to the detriment of the kids. I can’t speak for the coach above, but I wonder whether his exclusion of the private coaches is a way of leveling the field for everyone at his school. The only problem of course is he’s not equipped to bring everyone up to the level of the kid that really wants the private coach so he/she can be the best. Instead, what happens is you bring everyone down to the level he can coach to.

Or, you have kids quit or transfer. I feel so sorry for the kids that transfer because they want more than what a coach can provide. But I'm also sympathetic to their plight and wish them well. And I don't know why people thinks it's easy to give up all your friends to transfer to another school. I did it when I was young, and it was traumatic. Ok, perhaps that's because I transferred in to a school that my brother attended, but that's another story.

Leo Hernnandez
05-17-2013, 09:07 PM
BTW Threetrees

I have to hand it to you. You sure no your track stats and a whole lot about many H.S track programs. I will commend you on that one. And I am being sincere.

ThreeTrees
05-17-2013, 09:13 PM
Threetrees,

I don't appreciate you saying I need a wake up call just because you think I need youth coaches helping me, or allowing kids to bring in private coaches just so I can attract youth kids. I prefer the kids I get.

First, let me apologize to you for making you the example. It's not right. It's wrong. Rene's already come to your defense and he was right. And you weren't around last time, but I was a bigger jerk then. So, I do apologize. You don't need this.

This issue to me is so important though that I'm throwing all my moral restraint out the window (I know, I know, it's a very small window).

Please, help me understand why you have difficulty with the privates. I will try my best not to present this in an offensive way or be argumentative. You've heard the views of so many great coaches on this thread, and even some of them look to privates. I think you’re on to something that is shared by many of your peers. What is it?’ Is it because certain kids on your team get an unfair advantage? That your look for a social equity within your team? You don't like privates? It's too much work? Do you feel threatened? BTW -- any one of those answers would find suppport from a lot of people on this board.

Albert Caruana
05-17-2013, 09:26 PM
This thread should be retitled to "Message Board Vultures!" Yawn...next topic please.

ThreeTrees
05-17-2013, 09:52 PM
This thread should be retitled to "Message Board Vultures!" Yawn...next topic please.

You're right. This is kinda boring now. There really haven't been that many fascinating threads on this board. Soooooo, we need a new topic. And hopefully you're volunteering. If you could, the link below is where you can start a new thread. Just follow the link. We'll be over to join you real soon. Something pithy. State finals or something. Anything. We'll be over real soon.

http://mb.prepcaltrack.com/newthread.php?do=newthread&f=2

Martin Pennell
05-17-2013, 10:29 PM
So you are against cherry picking. You want the best coaches to only accept mediocre athletes. OK

If next year's Tamagno, Rocha, Ogden, German Fernandez, Haney, Baxter, Hasay or Gidyeon shows up on your campus you will run them off.

Oh no, I'm all for it. More power to him. It has been asserted that one of Vin Lananna's greatest talents is to judge talent, thereby recruiting the kids who maybe are not the best, but who can become the best. I'm just saying that Alberto Salazar in no way produced Mary Cain, he has however helped her to continue on her path and guided her improvement. He does not make the case for private coaching as ThreeTrees implied. You seem to infer a lot about me and I'm really not sure why.

Martin Pennell
05-17-2013, 10:33 PM
You're right. This is kinda boring now. There really haven't been that many fascinating threads on this board. Soooooo, we need a new topic. And hopefully you're volunteering. If you could, the link below is where you can start a new thread. Just follow the link. We'll be over to join you real soon. Something pithy. State finals or something. Anything. We'll be over real soon.

http://mb.prepcaltrack.com/newthread.php?do=newthread&f=2

Haha, I think we've disagreed on some things but this was spot on. Well played sir/madame/whoever.

Leo Hernnandez
05-18-2013, 07:31 AM
Thank you for your apology I accept it.

My philosophy is that all kids will be treated and coached equally no one gets special treatment. Its not that I dislike private coaches. I had a pole vault kid name Hardy in 2004 that won the city. I don't coach pole vault. His parents paid for a private coach that did a great job. I don't feel threatened by private coaches. When I accepted the head coach position I knew it was my job to be able to coach all events minus the pole vault(due to expense of new pitt school will not purchase a new one). I have five great assistant coaches, all events are covered with the exception of the pole vault. All my coaches are experts in the event they coach, so why would I seek private coaches? Also I don't need to sit here and point all the great athletes that I've coached at Monroe since 1999 to make myself look good. I went into teaching coaching to make a difference in these kids that need guidance and help improve their motivation and self confidence in order for them to be successful in life itself.

rnrdad
05-18-2013, 09:45 AM
I agree this is now boring. I start with my own participation and posts when I say that. This is the third go around this season alone.

In my final analysis i think things are actually pretty good in High School running sports.

There is and always will be a CIF and that is good.

At least 90% of all coaches, public school, private school, club, private, and parent are in it for the right reasons and do the best they can and attend clinics, read,and talk to other coaches so that they can get better.

There is choice, and some exercise it no matter what the rules say.

As a result of all that a huge number of our kids get to be on a team and get all of the valuable experience that brings.

The vast majority of us, parents, extended family members, coaches, friends, siblings get to go to meets and join in the celebration of the 7.0 1600 runner who posts a 6.53 as well as Mary Cain's recent "victory" for all Americans. They all matter equally and we all thank the coaches, everywhere, for helping each kid do their best.

There have been a relatively small number who have posted on 3 different threads and the format remains the same: each repeating their essentially same thoughts, accusations, apologies, distinctions, etc and it has been fun. I must say, though I have not seen any real effort at resolution or compromise despite the requisite " of course I .....for the kids". Of course at some point we all say we have learned something and I want to believe that is true. I know I have.

I am going to try real hard to not respond in this thread again. I see no reason for me to continue this discussion, in large part because I really do believe things are actually pretty good. Of course improvement is expected and will come as is required in all things human.

northWolfCoach
05-21-2013, 09:07 PM
Glad there are no vultures in the North State. ;)

lun son
06-06-2013, 08:58 AM
I usually try to read at least one book per summer break. However, after sitting here and reading this entire thread; I think I've more than met my quota for the summer. Holy cow, you guys are some of the most insightful, interesting and informative group of people! Let's keep these open ended discussions coming, I have nothing else better to do but count down the days till the first race of the season. Good stuff!!!!