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CoachB03
06-06-2015, 06:57 PM
First time I saw this was last year.

Can we agree now that a double waterfall in the state finals is not a good idea.

#rollerderby

Hal Harkness
06-06-2015, 11:05 PM
No, we can't agree.

Albert Caruana
06-07-2015, 05:16 AM
First time I saw this was last year.

Can we agree now that a double waterfall in the state finals is not a good idea.

#rollerderby

I don't think you can argue with the 12 finalists considering the depth of talent in California but you can certainly make a case for a better way to start the race. It's a shame that one of the best half milers in CA history wasn't able to defend her 2 titles after her collision resulting in her DQ. Nothing can beat the one turn stagger with 9 finalists in their lanes so now that we have 12 in the final, why not a triple alley or 3 runners share lanes?

On a side note, that starter was also holding the athletes too long after set command.

CoachB03
06-07-2015, 08:26 AM
No, we can't agree.

Why not? We had 1 runner per lane for years. It worked great. Take 12 athletes, all with seed times within 1.4 seconds of one another, put them in an event where getting to the front has been made even more important because of a crowded field, and you are going to have problems.

Both of Albert's suggestions were good ones. I think the better suggestion is one runner per lane in finals. To flatly say that the matter is not open for discussion is crumudeonly nonsense.

Hal Harkness
06-07-2015, 11:37 AM
You need to do a little homework and find the common thread in the 2013 and 2015 girls incidents. Not the fault of the start. Why aren't we having similar problems with the boys. This is the 5th year that the boys/girls 800's have run in this fashion. When you come up with the answer to the puzzle, let me know.

CoachB03
06-07-2015, 12:22 PM
I didn't realize it was 5 years already. I watched the video quite a few times. The incidents were 100% due to the fact that we had a very closely matched group all bolting for the rail at the same time. People do that on a waterfall.

I don't (and I doubt anyone else does either) appreciate the hostility.

I am not criticizing the meet as a whole, I was just really surprised last year when there were 12 guys in our sections final for 800. I thought at the time that putting additional runners in the final was not worth the extra risk of kids getting injured.

Hal Harkness
06-07-2015, 12:45 PM
Send me a private message.

cush
06-07-2015, 03:39 PM
for what it's worth, not that we have to follow the ncaa's lead, but they only have 8 finalists in the 800; so does usatf nationals final; so does the olympic final...

JStepp
06-07-2015, 07:15 PM
Anyone have a link to the video?

Rich Gonzalez
06-08-2015, 11:38 AM
In fairness to the team competition, the distance events and the field events should have the same number of entrants to the final (nine) as the lane events. Otherwise, teams with either the 10th, 11th or 12th qualifier to the final have an extra chance to score. That is an imbalance of the team competition that should not have been introduced to the state meet.

RichEde
06-08-2015, 12:12 PM
Rich,

Are you advocating a prelim round in the 3200 to cut that field to 9?

It's the eternal argument of "equity" vs. participation. In 7 of the 16 events you're constricted to 9 by the lane structure (putting aside the "old days" with waterfall starts in the 4x440 from the middle of the straightaway). In the 6 field events, other than duration, there really is no safety restriction. The problems arise in 3 events with the waterfall start at the top of a curve (the rest of the world has it right with 100 meters to sort out the 1500 meter start) and it will continue to be a philosophical discussion. I personally like a 3-alley solution. IAAF stacks 2 runners in lanes 8 then 6, then 4, then 2 for more than 8 (9) runners.

Rich Gonzalez
06-08-2015, 12:42 PM
Rich,

Are you advocating a prelim round in the 3200 to cut that field to 9?

It's the eternal argument of "equity" vs. participation. In 7 of the 16 events you're constricted to 9 by the lane structure (putting aside the "old days" with waterfall starts in the 4x440 from the middle of the straightaway). In the 6 field events, other than duration, there really is no safety restriction. The problems arise in 3 events with the waterfall start at the top of a curve (the rest of the world has it right with 100 meters to sort out the 1500 meter start) and it will continue to be a philosophical discussion. I personally like a 3-alley solution. IAAF stacks 2 runners in lanes 8 then 6, then 4, then 2 for more than 8 (9) runners.

Rich,

I did not advocate for that in my previous post (check my post). It would be fair, however, to consider doing that IF there is going to be a scoring championship.

As GREAT a performer as she is, no one knows if Destiny Collins would have WON the 3200m final if there was also a prelims (which would have been a fourth race for her in about 29 hours. The ten points she scored in the 3200 Final factored nicely into the team winning the runner-up plaque.

For decades, we took 9 to the finals in the field events and the distances. I believed that advancement-to-finals structure was changed starting with the 2010 meet.

Albert Caruana
06-08-2015, 03:14 PM
Rich,

I did not advocate for that in my previous post (check my post). It would be fair, however, to consider doing that IF there is going to be a scoring championship.

As GREAT a performer as she is, no one knows if Destiny Collins would have WON the 3200m final if there was also a prelims (which would have been a fourth race for her in about 29 hours. The ten points she scored in the 3200 Final factored nicely into the team winning the runner-up plaque.

For decades, we took 9 to the finals in the field events and the distances. I believed that advancement-to-finals structure was changed starting with the 2010 meet.

First of all, Valley Christian SJ won the runner up team trophy (Great Oak finished 3rd). I mentioned this before but how are there only two team awards (2 for boys and 2 for girls) in track when you have 30 plaques awarded in XC for example? Can we go at least 4 deep in track? Seems pretty fair to me.

Back to the fairness of events, the events are not equal. A sprinter like Michael Norman and Lauren Williams are able to do 4 events while distance runners are not so allowing more entrants in the distance events seems fair to me. The real issue is handling the 12 competitors in the 800 and two alleys is not the way to go. Trust me on this, the boys will have an issue very soon if we continue with the same format.

RichEde
06-09-2015, 08:32 AM
Just to throw another spitball into the fray: how about the Minnesota model and score 16 with 2 sections of everything up through 800?