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Thread: An Open and Snarky Letter About Undue Influence

  1. #21
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    Actually it was while I was on the LA Interscholastic Athletics Committee (Section Board of Managers) as a coaches association rep. The committee made the original decision in 1985, denying Steffes transfer eligibility from Brentwood (SS) to Palisades High School. That was a year before I became LA Section Commissioner in October of 1986. It did actually go all the way up the ladder to the Supreme Court in the late 80's and they refused to hear it. From the CIF (State Association side) it was a landmark decision, the first that actually dealt with clarifying the privilege/right issue with extra-curricular activities and rules that govern transfers, etc. My original purpose was to point out the conflict between this decision and the DOE's declaration that participation was a "right". The only right that I'm aware of is to a basic education and no where has that been pushed by court decision past the classroom to any extra-curricular activities, athletes being just one of many.

  2. #22
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    "I'm really curious now how the CIF takes up the issue of recruiting/tampering. I'm curious how they address transfers/choice now." [/quote]

    I think CIF has really made their stance on both pretty clear recently:

    Recruiting/tampering - They don't want you to do it but really won't do anything about it unless is such an obvious example that they have to act, then they will. Otherwise it is heresay and they turn a blind eye. I've talked with CIF officials about the track teams that cheat constantly, they know about them and could name most of them before I even said a team name, they are just not going to do anything about them. Sad but true.

    Transfers/choice - CIF has allowed people to transfer, sit out for the first month of competition and then join the team. Seems like they have said feel free to transfer one time as needed, which isn't a bad rule conceptually.

    Ultimately it is the programs that are going out and recruiting the superstars from the youth track scene that really ruin it for everyone else. Transfers happen, and we get them. Recruiting is not an accident though, and specific programs go out of their way to end up with top athletes that shouldn't be going to their school. Like I've said before, it isn't hard to check the middle schools of everyone on a roster...

    Doug
    ----------------------------
    Doug Soles
    Head XC & Track Coach
    Great Oak High School

  3. #23
    Doug Soles, Three Trees and Remy all make valid points. Overall, I think Remy put it best, especially considering the last post by Sole, and the "transfer once" rule.

    Having been a middle school and club coach, it has been my overwhelming experience that parents and their kids are looking for the school that can deliver both: strong academics and a program that will develop their kids. They want the best chance to go to University\College and be succesful. Not a one wants a State Championship if it does not lead to success in College.

    Parents\kids can go to the neighborhood school, attend a private school, attend a faith based school for personal faith reasons, etc. The sad truth is, however, too many public schools continue to fail on the academic side prompting parents and kids to seek district transfers or apply to the various private schools. However, many simply cannot afford private, limiting options again. It really puts "neigborhood or school loyalty" to a test when the neighborhood school does not provide much of a chance to develop academically or athletically. Most kids are quite loyal to whatever school they end up in.

    I suggest a different look at the recruiting issue. No need to track where they came from, but where they went. What happened in college\univeristy? Did they get in? Did they transfer after getting in? Did they graduate? That is what matters.

    No parent I know would trade a State High School Athletic Championship for failure in college. Every parent I know wants the school\program that will best prepare their child for succes in life, not in some High School Athletic Competition.

    Every parent I know sees sports as a means, not an end, especially at this level.

    Track where they went and what happened. Require schools to post that info on their websites. Ban\suspend the schools that fail their athletes academically but win titles with those same athletes. Pretty sure the schools that show a record of academic failure for athletes won't be getting too much recruiting done.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by rnrdad View Post
    Doug Soles, Three Trees and Remy all make valid points. Overall, I think Remy put it best, especially considering the last post by Sole, and the "transfer once" rule.

    Having been a middle school and club coach, it has been my overwhelming experience that parents and their kids are looking for the school that can deliver both: strong academics and a program that will develop their kids. They want the best chance to go to University\College and be succesful. Not a one wants a State Championship if it does not lead to success in College.

    Parents\kids can go to the neighborhood school, attend a private school, attend a faith based school for personal faith reasons, etc. The sad truth is, however, too many public schools continue to fail on the academic side prompting parents and kids to seek district transfers or apply to the various private schools. However, many simply cannot afford private, limiting options again. It really puts "neigborhood or school loyalty" to a test when the neighborhood school does not provide much of a chance to develop academically or athletically. Most kids are quite loyal to whatever school they end up in.

    I suggest a different look at the recruiting issue. No need to track where they came from, but where they went. What happened in college\univeristy? Did they get in? Did they transfer after getting in? Did they graduate? That is what matters.

    No parent I know would trade a State High School Athletic Championship for failure in college. Every parent I know wants the school\program that will best prepare their child for succes in life, not in some High School Athletic Competition.

    Every parent I know sees sports as a means, not an end, especially at this level.

    Track where they went and what happened. Require schools to post that info on their websites. Ban\suspend the schools that fail their athletes academically but win titles with those same athletes. Pretty sure the schools that show a record of academic failure for athletes won't be getting too much recruiting done.
    Yep, keep chasing that scholarship. That is all that matters...

    http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/highsc...195115215.html
    ----------------------------
    Doug Soles
    Head XC & Track Coach
    Great Oak High School

  5. #25
    Threetrees, so when the day comes that schools out there are online, have only 15 students, and are state champs in basketball, do you think that would be alright? Off of the top of my head I believe you only have to have 14 students to be accredited. How about 20 kids and they are all sprinters and...well you get the picture. That's where you want to see the world go? The basketball example I know for a fact has been inquired about in another state.
    Last edited by Ed Winczowski; 02-05-2013 at 09:56 AM.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Soles View Post
    Yep, keep chasing that scholarship. That is all that matters...

    http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/highsc...195115215.html
    When it is your way or the highway I guess all you can see is your way.

    High School is a steppingstone to College. If your high school can't preapre you for college then you need to find a different one if at all possible.

    Sports can teach you in a relatively short time some valuable life lessons, as do other activities.

    YES, chase the grades and the scholarships - academics, music, debate and sports and whatever else you might be able to get to succeed in life.

    Education is the best chance to improve your life.

    Any coach or team - club or CIF - that uses a kid for a title and does not develop that kid both academically and athletically is cheating that kids. In Club people will stop joining. In CIF, they should be suspended or banned.

    Are you seriously saying that a parent and their kids should "be loyal" to their neighborhood school and ignore an opportunity to do better? Do not try to get a scholarship? Do not go somewhere else if they have a better shot at going to college?

    Wow.

  7. #27
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    The sad truth is, however, too many public schools continue to fail on the academic side prompting parents and kids to seek district transfers or apply to the various private schools. However, many simply cannot afford private, limiting options again. It really puts "neigborhood or school loyalty" to a test when the neighborhood school does not provide much of a chance to develop academically or athletically.
    I love it when so many people continue to say that the public schools continue to fail the students. These people should all spend a week in the schools that they criticize so vehemently and see the real truth: Students who do not come prepared, students who do not do homework, students who do not try to participate, parents who see school as free day-care, parents who expect the teachers to raise their kids, lack of discipline and respect, etc., etc.

    I teach in a school that many would consider "under-priviliged" or perhaps even one of the failing schools. In the past few years we have sent people to many prestigious schools across the country. The students can get a great education anywhere. Sometimes they need to do their part. Sometimes the parents need to seize the opportunities that are around instead of always seeing the "greener" grass somewhere else. Sometimes students need to take responsibility for their own education.
    We are certainly not in a place to recruit anyone to my school, in fact we lose many. I coach anyone who shows up and commits to the team. I may not be the best coach but I try to educate myself. If someone at another school needs to recruit an athlete away from our program, I would be disappointed but I would move on and coach those who want to be here. The issue is divisive and never will be agreed upon by all interested parties. However, I am not sure that we should be teaching our kids that it is perfectly fine to shop their services to the highest bidder and then perhaps the next season go somewhere else.
    Last edited by Keith Chann; 02-05-2013 at 10:18 AM. Reason: mi speeling wuz turribal
    Keith Chann
    Chemistry teacher
    XC Fan
    Rubidoux High School

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by rnrdad View Post
    When it is your way or the highway I guess all you can see is your way.

    High School is a steppingstone to College. If your high school can't preapre you for college then you need to find a different one if at all possible.

    Sports can teach you in a relatively short time some valuable life lessons, as do other activities.

    YES, chase the grades and the scholarships - academics, music, debate and sports and whatever else you might be able to get to succeed in life.

    Education is the best chance to improve your life.

    Any coach or team - club or CIF - that uses a kid for a title and does not develop that kid both academically and athletically is cheating that kids. In Club people will stop joining. In CIF, they should be suspended or banned.

    Are you seriously saying that a parent and their kids should "be loyal" to their neighborhood school and ignore an opportunity to do better? Do not try to get a scholarship? Do not go somewhere else if they have a better shot at going to college?

    Wow.
    I completely agree, education is the best chance to improve your life. I personally am an example of that.


    But I am showing an example (in my last post) of how chasing a scholarship in many ways is getting ridiculous. High School athletics are not irrelivant, not just a stepping stone for people who want to try to use the system for their "scholarship." That attitude is a major part of the issue we see in sports these days. My teams have been very successful, am I one of the coaches that "uses" kids to win at CIF? I'm not quite sure how a kid is used by a high school sport? Did the kid sign up for the sport and choose to be on the team? Who is using who? Are the Lakers using Kobe Bryant??? That poor bastard...

    Our athletes set the goals for the team, which usually includes trying to win a state title. We as coaches work as hard as we can to coach them to the level they have asked. Are there bad coaches out there that overrun athletes? Sure there are. But to say coaches are "using" athletes to win a league or state title just isn't logical. People that voluntarily sign up to be part of a high school sports TEAM are not pro athletes that are so stellar that they demand special performance options listed in a contract. They are high school kids, getting a high school education, on high school teams. If they are above that, Mary Cain has shown them their other options.

    Why are kids sent to local schools? Their parents live there! I can tell you when I bought my house, one of the first things I thought about was where my kids would attend school long term, and I didn't even have kids yet! Should the kids go to that school? Yes! Don't like it? Move to a place that is better situated for your family.

    -Sending kids across the country to go to a fake high school to focus on basketball in hopes of a basketball scholarship? Wrong.

    -Giving false addresses to attend a different school with better athletic programs in hopes of a scholarship? Wrong.

    -Creating all-star teams at private schools and using scholarships as an excuse? Wrong.

    -Accusing a coach of "using" athletes on their roster to win? Wrong.

    Local schools improve when the "best" people that should be going to them stay and build them up. It is difficult to do, no doubt. So is being a leader.

    Feel free to check on the scholarship opportunities my over "used" and under appreciated athletes get on a daily basis.

    Doug
    ----------------------------
    Doug Soles
    Head XC & Track Coach
    Great Oak High School

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Chann View Post
    I love it when so many people continue to say that the public schools continue to fail the students. These people should all spend a week in the schools that they criticize so vehemently and see the real truth: Students who do not come prepared, students who do not do homework, students who do not try to participate, parents who see school as free day-care, parents who expect the teachers to raise their kids, lack of discipline and respect, etc., etc.

    I teach in a school that many would consider "under-priviliged" or perhaps even one of the failing schools. In the past few years we have sent people to many prestigious schools across the country. The students can get a great education anywhere. Sometimes they need to do their part. Sometimes the parents need to seize the opportunities that are around instead of always seeing the "greener" grass somewhere else. Sometimes students need to take responsibility for their own education.
    We are certainly not in a place to recruit anyone to my school, in fact we lose many. I coach anyone who shows up and commits to the team. I may not be the best coach but I try to educate myself. If someone at another school needs to recruit an athlete away from our program, I would be disappointed but I would move on and coach those who want to be here. The issue is divisive and never will be agreed upon by all interested parties. However, I am not sure that we should be teaching our kids that it is perfectly fine to shop their services to the highest bidder and then perhaps the next season go somewhere else.
    There are more very good, and outstanding, public schools than failing ones. But there are those poorly performing that do exist. You are absolutely right that there are also a lot of "failing" parents. And Yes, ultimately it is up to each kid to do what they need to do.

    Taking responsiblilty for themselves is exactly what I am talking about. I read a study not long ago that the majority of Ivy Leagues Students came from public schools. Yes, in a better world parents and kids would work with teachers to improve even the lesser schools and everyone would benefit.

    As I have tried to point out is that even the big name schools are not what they sell themselves to be, because a number of their superstars fail after high school because they weren't prepared. No one hears about that, so the myth continues and they get the studs and keep the myth alive.

    Rather than restrict choice, allow those who want to truly try to choose what may be best for them. Let them make an informed decision by knowing how well that school prepared others like them for success in college.

    You, Soles, Remy, and the others who usually post here are well recognized and respected becasue you do care and do an excellent job with your kids. Disagreement and discussion is healthy.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Soles View Post
    I completely agree, education is the best chance to improve your life. I personally am an example of that.


    But I am showing an example (in my last post) of how chasing a scholarship in many ways is getting ridiculous. High School athletics are not irrelivant, not just a stepping stone for people who want to try to use the system for their "scholarship." That attitude is a major part of the issue we see in sports these days. My teams have been very successful, am I one of the coaches that "uses" kids to win at CIF? I'm not quite sure how a kid is used by a high school sport? Did the kid sign up for the sport and choose to be on the team? Who is using who? Are the Lakers using Kobe Bryant??? That poor bastard...

    Our athletes set the goals for the team, which usually includes trying to win a state title. We as coaches work as hard as we can to coach them to the level they have asked. Are there bad coaches out there that overrun athletes? Sure there are. But to say coaches are "using" athletes to win a league or state title just isn't logical. People that voluntarily sign up to be part of a high school sports TEAM are not pro athletes that are so stellar that they demand special performance options listed in a contract. They are high school kids, getting a high school education, on high school teams. If they are above that, Mary Cain has shown them their other options.

    Why are kids sent to local schools? Their parents live there! I can tell you when I bought my house, one of the first things I thought about was where my kids would attend school long term, and I didn't even have kids yet! Should the kids go to that school? Yes! Don't like it? Move to a place that is better situated for your family.

    -Sending kids across the country to go to a fake high school to focus on basketball in hopes of a basketball scholarship? Wrong.

    -Giving false addresses to attend a different school with better athletic programs in hopes of a scholarship? Wrong.

    -Creating all-star teams at private schools and using scholarships as an excuse? Wrong.

    -Accusing a coach of "using" athletes on their roster to win? Wrong.

    Local schools improve when the "best" people that should be going to them stay and build them up. It is difficult to do, no doubt. So is being a leader.

    Feel free to check on the scholarship opportunities my over "used" and under appreciated athletes get on a daily basis.

    Doug

    Everyone knows that your school and your teams do very well and that your kids do well after high school. No one is accusing you of abusing your kids.

    Not everyone gets to choose where they live, or has the luxury of just getting up and moving. Maybe because education helped you, you have that luxury.

    You are complaining about those cheating schools that recruit. As I have said about 3 times now, parents I know want their kids to go to college and graduate, but they have to go high school, (maybe other than Ms. Cain, but is that wise?) in order to get to college. That is the steppingstone. Many people go to private schools for faith and other reasons other than to get merely athletic scholarships. Many families choose to drvie long distances becasue the school they choose meets many needs, not just athletic titles or scholarships. That is their choice.

    As to athletic recruiting, it is wrong and should be stopped, but those that cheat their athletes by using them to win titles but not educating them should be stopped. Where do you get I am accusing you of doing that?

    Choosing a High School is not recruiting, even if it is not your neighborhood school. Choosing based on false information is usually not an informed choice.

    Choice is something that should not taken away. Again: those that use athletes for titles but do not educate them should not have athletes to chase titles with. Not you, Mr. Soles, but those cheating schools you are complaining about.

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