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Thread: NXN Qualifiers

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by parent View Post
    I realize you are discussing the boys qualifiers for NXN, but how about the girls side. Capo Valley girls had a tremendous season, and finished 3rd in the state behind Saugus. In the division 2 race 11 points behind Saugus. Not sure why a couple of the teams were chosen for at large berths ex. Shenendoah, and Davis. Both teams finishing respectively 15th and 18th at NXN- Where do you suppose Capo Valley would have finished???? maybe right next to Saugus 12th place or so? Or better? Not sure why those choices were made, but hopefully in the future we can put the best teams forward. Maybe I am pro California, but it is one of the most competitive areas am I right?
    Capistrano Valley clearly had a great season and a strong argument for one of the at-large spots. CV probably was the first team left out during the selection. My guess is not having beaten an auto-qualifier might have been the deciding factor. (Shen didn't either, but they tied Saratoga in one race, losing on the sixth man, and were within four points of FM [though it was FM's worst race of the season]). For instance, if CV had won state and become the second AQ, then Saugus probably would have been selected for an at-large as they beat Wayzata, Naperville North and CV during the season.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by cush View Post
    funny--i hadn't realized capo's girls didn't get chosen until i saw the results. i have no idea how they choose at-large berths, but assumed california got at least one at-large (they often get two). maybe we'll see less controversy over how they choose the college football championship teams later today...

    that said, congrats to the californians who made it and represented us well--highlights for me were the great oak girls and caleb webb.

    i think californians, especially the ultra-competitive southern section, will always be at a disadvantage at both post-season championships (footlocker and nxn) because of the several-week-long-gantlet these teams and individuals have to go through before these race--no professional athlete could expect optimal performances after such a rigorous schedule--so full props to the coaches and athletes who qualified and competed well, and those who will be competing next week...
    Having been through the forum wars on the gauntlet question, I've realized that other states, regions and teams face similar and different issues in the run-up to NXN. For instance, Saratoga ran State, Feds and the NXN Regional in the three weeks preceding NXN. Wayzata had a month off after their regional. So while it is extremely difficult to run three hard races in a row (and I don't think many outside California realize that SS Finals is often even more competitive than State), I don't believe it's the central issue for SS teams.

    These seem more serious:
    First, running Mt. Sac three times (or only twice) in a five-week period is a killer. Second, not running slow, mushy courses during the season doesn't help prepare teams for the courses in Portland.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hal Harkness View Post
    Take a deep breath. the CIF is not going to change the weekend of the State Championships to suit qualifying for a two non-NFHS sanctioned meets. It's just not on the radar and it's not going to happen. When the State Cross Country Meet proposal was approved by the CIF Federated Council in San Diego in October, 1986, , it contained two significant stipulations: (1) The meet would always be held on Thanksgiving weekend to eliminate loss of school time; (2) The meet be held in Fresno to minimize travel for all involved and eliminate the necessity to use expensive air. All worked well until NXN showed up the on the following weekend. Last Saturday at Woodward Park there were over 1900 athletes participating. How many of those are going to Portland?
    It isn't 1986, and I no longer use a VCR or land line telephone. The reality is that times change and the athletes and coaches that CIF is creating this meet for need to be open to the possibility of changes to catch us up with the goals and expectations that teams are now setting. The "CIF will never do this or that" model needs to stop. CIF should be there to listen to the coaches and the athletes and work with us to create the best possible experience it can. We can fix the majority of the issues with NXN Qualifying by changing the state meet schedule in order to make it work. The most important part is having D1, D2, and D3 running as close together as possible so that weather is not a big factor in performance, like it was this season. Here is a solution that would work for both state and NXN qualifying:

    TIME SCHEDULE 2015 Schedule
    Division V Boys Race 8:30 a.m.
    Division IV Boys Race 9:00 a.m.
    Division III Boys Race 9:30 a.m.
    Division II Boys Race 10:05 a.m.
    Division I Boys Race 10:40 a.m.
    Division V Girls Race 11:10 a.m.
    Division IV Girls Race 11:45 a.m.
    Division III Girls Race 12:15 p.m.
    Division II Boys Race 12:50 p.m.
    Division I Girls Race 1:20 p.m.

    *Rotate Boys and girls early/late each year.
    *Rotate DI, D2, and D3 order with each other each year.

    Instead of "nothing will work and we won't change it," how about asking us if we can come up with solutions to fix a clear problem that effects US? My boys team should have been on the line at NXN this year. If the boys D1 race goes off at 8:30 am, we are going. Get the main 3 divisions as close to an hour a part as possible and the weather issues will be way less dramatic. Have D4 and D5 go first so that any fast individuals they have still have a chance to qualify to NXN.

    This is one of those things that many people can ignore because they don't feel like it will happen to them. What happens when it does happen to you? Be proactive for the team you may have 2 years from now, 10 years...You do not want your team to feel the way my boys team did on the way home from state, trust me. I understand that there isn't going to be a lot of sympathy out there for me or for GO in general, but put your child in the place of mine and try to explain to them how you can have the best resume of any team in the at large pool and that nobody seemed to care. We couldn't have done any more than we did this year winning Woodbridge, Nike Pre-Nationals, Clovis, and Mt. SAC, and D1 State with our boys team. We had the best resume and the toughest schedule in the at large pool and due to a faulty state schedule and national politics we were left home. Coaches, help change the state schedule and prevent this from happening to your team. Contact someone on the CIF Committee like Dennis Kelly at Trabuco Hills and let him know you would like the state meet schedule to change to reflect teams a better chance to qualify to NXN fairly. At the end of the day if we are going to use CIF as a qualifier to NXN, we need fix it so that it works.

    Doug
    ----------------------------
    Doug Soles
    Head XC & Track Coach
    Great Oak High School

  4. #24
    Doug,

    Why is your anger not directed at NXN? They are the ones who chose to have their meet the weekend after the CA State Meet and not leave enough time to have a western qualifier that includes CA. They can just as easily change their date to accommodate CA.
    Chad Scott
    XC & TF Coach
    Westlake High (SS)

  5. #25
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    First I would like to say congrats to all this past season!

    I may lack knowledge on the whole process and rules of the CIF state meet, NXN, and Footlocker. However, it appears the CIF will not budge or does not want to do anything with NXN. I wonder if NXN can move the meet to the second weekend of December, and give California its own regional meet on the first weekend of December. Yes, I do understand that Footlocker has its national meet always on the second weekend of December, but at the end it's about giving everyone a fair chance at making it to NXN. In addition, this change would get a for sure on who will be committing to Footlocker and NXN individual wise. By doing this then we would have the best possible representation at NXN with teams from CA that will have all their true individuals on the line.

    Hope this makes sense, just my two cents.

    Madera South High School
    Cross Country & Track
    Head Coach Eloy Quintana

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Soles View Post
    CIF should be there to listen to the coaches and the athletes and work with us to create the best possible experience it can. We can fix the majority of the issues with NXN Qualifying by changing the state meet schedule in order to make it work. The most important part is having D1, D2, and D3 running as close together as possible so that weather is not a big factor in performance, like it was this season.

    We couldn't have done any more than we did this year winning Woodbridge, Nike Pre-Nationals, Clovis, and Mt. SAC, and D1 State with our boys team. We had the best resume and the toughest schedule in the at large pool and due to a faulty state schedule and national politics we were left home.

    At the end of the day if we are going to use CIF as a qualifier to NXN, we need fix it so that it works.

    Doug
    i think cif does an excellent job to make state finals work. i am not usually one to defend bureaucracy or crotchety old men like hal harkness, but that's cif's only obligation, and should remain so. to their credit, they do change, they have changed, and i'd imagine they'll continue to change, but why should they do so for nike? i'd hate for a d4 or d5 team to get bit in the butt by your proposed model, so i'll speak for those teams that may be 2 years or 10 years down the road, as well as individuals like this year's caleb webb, and say they deserve their spot in the regular rotation. every race presents its own difficulties AND advantages, and using weather as the only barometer is unfair to the efforts of teams that ostensibly had "better conditions." personally i race better later in the day rather than earlier--don't know if there is any research to show this matters, other than it may be related to fluctuations in body temperature (lowest in the sleep/early morning, rising in the afternoon, peaking between 4-6pm). could this balance out the warmer weather? who knows--though from my understanding it sounds like everyone had pretty good weather conditions, though wind did pick up. could you argue that d1 has a built in competitive advantage because of depth of competition? absolutely, though you could argue the opposite as well, since it could make for a more crowded course for different parts of the field. at the end of the day, there is NO perfect system to make every race fair, but i, as an athlete and coach, have learned to live with throwing myself at the mercy of the clock.

    your running resume--impressive as it was--is not a concern for cif, but nike, as pointed out by another post, NOT a faulty state schedule. and, with all due respect to an incredible program and coaching staff, there is something more you could have done. your team could have run faster. it's no different than any other form of preliminary round--if that's what you're viewing state finals as--meaning you are not only racing the athletes in your race, but the athletes in the other heats. tough for young athletes to remember this--even professionals, as you see them consistently ease up at the line in prelims, costing them lane assignments and/or qualifying for the next round/final--but it is the reality of racing.

    as far as contacting dennis kelly, you'd be better off trying to get him a job at nike to "fix it so that it works."

    just my dos pesos from a coach who's never won a state title OR been to nxn, so again i'd like to congratulate doug--and my old century h.s. teaching colleague, dan noble--on an incredible season and program.

    that's my story and i'm sticking to it...

  7. #27
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    I agree with Doug. I have had two teams make the long drive home wondering if they qualified to NXN only to have their hearts crushed when they were not selected and less deserving teams from other regions were. Boys in 2010 and Girls in 2013 (we missed by single digits both times and won our head-to-head match-ups). It is a horrible feeling. I completely understand your anger, but it should be directed at NXN. They are the ones who select the same teams year after year for at-larges even when they clearly do not deserve it. Woodlands boys in 2010 and Girls in 2013. They like story lines up at Nike and they like to see teams that wear Nike gear qualify for their meet. Maybe the gear part is just a conspiracy theory... we don't wear Nike.

    I also agree with Cush. CIF is under no obligation to change and I see no reason why they should. I also agree that Hal is "crotchety"! There is no better feeling than winning a State Title. NXN is cool, but it just doesn't have the same historical significance as the State Finals. Just my opinion. I don't see why CIF should change the date for State. The sole purpose of the State Meet is to crown State Champions. The main purpose of NXN in to make money. NXN is a commercial to sell Nike to young runners. They lose money to put it on, but most of the kids leave that race with a strong affinity for all things Nike. It is really quite brilliant when you consider all the free advertising they generate on Social Media (selfies for days!). Brooks does it with the PR Invite, which is really a great production, Adidas does it with the Dream Mile (pretty fun too).

    My team peaks for State. If we are fortunate enough to garner an auto spot for NXN in the future, we will happily go and post selfies all over Instagram, Twitter, SnapChat, Facebook, ect. If we are one of the two teams being considered for an at-large... well, I am not a free-diver, so I'm not holding my breath.
    Last edited by ClemDog; 12-09-2014 at 11:52 AM. Reason: I can spell... I swears it!
    Liam Clemons
    Director of Cross Country
    Head Distance Coach
    Trabuco Hills High School
    D-1

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